Big Blue Huddle

Rodgers is the football poster child for the Conspiracy Nut right wing fringe. Pretty much nobody in that fringe is a decent human but even in the bad company he keeps he stands out as particularly hideous. He's still a great player but he is also a divisive personality that the Jets are welcome too 'enjoy'.

Today probably Brock Bowers over Nabers as Bowers will improve both our pass and run game, even though taking a TE that high would probably make me want to trade back a touch if possible.

Alt and Fashanu would have to get real consideration but I think we will invest in a veteran RT and G in our continuing efforts to solidify our OL then draft another G day 2 or 3.

If we do bypass R1 Ts there are possible R3/4 developmental tackles like Paul from Houston and Amegadjie from Yale who might well get a hard look.

I don't think Hyatt is a disappointment, he just has not been used effectively with any consistency. He is not the best fit for our depressingly horizontal game. The play called back by the Bellinger hold reminds us of what he can be if we include more vertical passing plays in the O with better QB & OL play.

Equally I do not think Hyatt makes Slayton expendable as Slayton has worked his ass off to improve his hands to be arguably the best on the team. If the QB throws on time he can be effective on the sideline and in traffic as well as deep. He's a better player now than the one we drafted.

Slayton offers the perfect example of what Hyatt can become with good coaching and personal work. Hyatt has more upside if we can develop him. Sometimes we are too impatient as fans - not every player is the finished product out of college.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 31, 2023, 07:19:47 PMI voted for Tiki, and pretty enthusiastically, although I'd like to think most Giants fans are capable of deciding on this choice without basing their decision on what they saw on one single play in a single game they just watched an hour ago.

The point I was making Dave is that those plays in that game summed up much of Bartley's time with us. His tendency to take negative plays has been discussed since game 1 as has his inability to translate his athleticism into consistent productivity as a receiver. He under-performs his talent on a regular basis and whilst some of that may be the misfortune of being stuck with us the truly great ones transcend their situations. He's a guy. A talented guy for sure but he's not a great.

I don't see how anyone can vote for Saquon seeing his hands of stone on key passes and him taking negative yardage on a critical run which is pretty much who he is. Occasionally he explodes for big plays (fewer than pre-injury) but too often he just does not get the basics right. Tiki was money.

How many foundational players (good age, established or trending upwards) do we have?

On O:

Thomas
Robinson
Bellinger (despite a bad day)
Hyatt potentially
JMS potentially
Slayton if I really stretch the definition

On D:
Thibodeaux (despite inconsistent effort)
Dex
Okereke
McFadden potentially
Banks
Pinnock potentially
Flott potentially

Barkley, McKinney contract status and under-performing excluded them for me.

It is hard to conclude we are close to being a good team when you apply this lens. We are short of foundational pieces to win both LoS and we are short of explosive playmakers on both sides of the ball. QB may be the biggest hole but it is far from the only one.

This thread, like our season, has some comedy value if you have a thick enough skin for black humo(u)r.

The only way Daniel Jones is not on our roster next season is if we take the $69m(!) dead cap hit. Nobody is trading for him with that contract. Anyone who cannot get their head around something so straight forward is just wasting cloud storage space posting.

Wilson has been ordinary in Denver though this season he has definitely had some better moments. Injury and years have combined to reduce his mobility to average. His arm is still good but his decision-making can be a problem. Too many missed openings due to slow/late reads. Too many turnovers until Payton dumbed it down. Then there is the noise suggesting he is not exactly a unifying presence in the locker room.

I know the contract injury guarantees are an issue but Payton would be hunting solutions not giving up on him if he believed he could win a Super Bowl with him. I'm not betting against his judgement.

As we are stuck with DJ on the payroll for one, possibly two more years we will presumably be looking for a robust bargain QB2 like Minshew. I also think we might be in the Zach Wilson market if he is cut as I can see Daboll thinking he can improve him.

Totally agree on the injury Kartonoman. You simply cannot kick well with any groin injury no matter how minor. The touchback issue with Gillan is a fair one and it is at least in part due to the technical pros and cons of rugby style punting.

Touchbacks are a slightly surprising issue for a rugby style kicker and reflects Gillan perhaps being slightly too in love with distance given he has a 'big' leg. He may also be struggling with the narrow field (49m vs 70m) meaning he tends to kick too centrally.

As context, in rugby the regular drop punt is traditionally primarily to 'kick to touch'. The rugby field is a lot wider (70m vs 50m) so we often compromise maximum forward distance for sideline distance when we 'kick for touch'. We also tend to kick at a lower angle to help accuracy. We only care about 'hang-time' on shorter 'kick to chase' in field kicks.

The narrower NFL field requires much more precision, which in rugby kicking is usually about body angle/core stability and making ball contact slightly higher in the drop. We can be almost side-on when kicking to a precise target which is not feasible with an NFL ball.

Gillan also grew up holding the ball fundamentally differently. The longer, thinner, lighter rugby balls is most stable for kicking when held straight and end forwards with hands symmetrically placed along the sides relatively centrally or with a slight bias forward. We tend to drop outside our body frame to give us the angle to kick to sidelines or corners. Gillan typically angles his body and drops outside his frame.

The shorter, heavier NFL ball is most stable when held with a palm at the back of the ball and the other hand slightly forward, tending to position the ball at a 30 degree angle (depending on hand size) which naturally facilitates kicking slightly more towards corners/sidelines from a more straight on stance.

Gillan like most rugby style kickers will have to continually work to find the right technical compromises to optimise his accuracy.

Gillan was one of the better punters in the league statistically this year until the recent injuries. He had improved significantly on last year in most aspects of his job.

There is a lot of misunderstanding in this thread on the technicalities of 'rugby style' punting (said as someone who played rugby at county junior level & until my mid 20s) and in particular the pros and cons vs traditional NFL punting.

One thing that has been largely absent from the debate is to acknowledge that our protection has been flat out terrible all season. I am of the strong opinion that we would have had far more blocks if it was not for Gillian's angled move which has averted a significant number of near blocks. This move also makes it arguably easier for the OL to block up given practice and familiarity as they know they are shifting left or right pre punt so should only have one vulnerable edge.

This Gillan move has generated some debate on here but it is not a 'quirk' it is an absolutely foundational element of rugby style kicking where you rarely, if ever, kick from hand facing straight forward when stationary.

On the flip side it is true that Gillan still has occasional issues with his drop and contact point as there is less margin for error on a drop punt contact point with the heavier, smaller NFL ball.

IMO for us there is a trade off with maybe a couple of extra 'shanks' vs potential blocks avoided. Pick your poison! Overall Gillan still makes me a touch nervous because he is not completely consistent with this hand position (height of ball at drop - watch him) when he punts and I have no objection to a late day 3 pick, UDFA or FA in camp to offer true competition but he's pretty low down our problem list IMO.

We have a lot of young players in the OL mix who are not performing. Injuries have been a factor. Coaching HAS to be a factor. I listened to O'Hara talk about OL on a podcast a while back and he specified the three things beyond coaching and facilities he believes factor into a good OL room from a player perspective as being:

1. Intelligence - it is a complex position with lots of interdependence meaning responding fast to coaching, opponents and team mates is critical; emotional intelligence also matters to enable...

2. Camaraderie - you cannot have loners, people who can't comfortably bond into a team unit or selfish people; he was very clear you don't need a room full of extroverts but you do need a room full of guys who will rub along well and enjoy spending time together. He noted you can get away with more in college but any 'cracks' in teamwork and mutual respect can quickly become chasms under NFL pressures

3. Trust - you have to trust the coaching, trust your guys and trust yourself; mistakes get made but you don't hold grudges if guys have the right attitude, work ethic and personal accountability (hold your hands up, no excuses, no blame-shifting)

I wonder if guys like him and Diehl were to be in our OL room what they would see. I wonder if our scouts and front office understand these specifics for OL recruitment and development well enough.

Daboll is learning how to be a HC. He was excellent last year showing flashes of creativity and presence. He has been terrible this year, failing to create any unity of purpose in the building or hold things fully together in tough times. He will and should get a year 3 for him and us to see if he can learn from year two and take a step forward. I suspect it will be an attempted turnaround he takes on with wholesale staff changes.

Like most things in life the answer is that it is several things. Some of it is definitely an issue of talent - Dex and a fit AT might be our only starters who would definitely start for the Eagles. Some of it is coaching. Some of it is injuries (which is usually a mix of training, turf, technique & luck). Some might be locker room - how many true leaders do we have that drive up energy, competitive spirit and drive to win (as opposed to good guys, community assets or thin-skinned egos)? Stepping back we still do not look, feel or act like a winning organisation. We lack edge and fire on and off the field.

The Giants OL talent is NOT the worst in the league. The Giants OL is. Any fix has to start with the coaching. Get a Callahan or Munchak as soon as the season ends and let them evaluate the tape and play a big role in final FA and draft evaluations. Even with what we have we should not be giving up an average(!) of more than 5 sacks per game and the most pressures per game to boot.

Answering the question, yes the Chiefs talent level on O has degraded significantly and they rely too heavily on Mahomes and Kelce.

On the Toney offside play (he was, it should be called more often but refs need to be consistent with it) I want to point out my pet peeve this season. The RT was also clearly illegally aligned, too far off the LoS & outside the body frame of the C. The LT might be as well though he is partially obscured by the TE in the angles I have seen.

This is now a common sight on passing snaps across many teams. It is cheating to gain an advantage vs. speedy edge defenders. It needs to be called routinely to stop it happening. Penalties are not only for defenders! The NFL needs to get its act together on this.