Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 10, 2023, 10:30:45 AMI was delighted at the time it happened, but that win was a potential disaster in hindsight.

I could be wrong but I think in the past head to head didn't factor in tie breakers it was strength of schedule. But that also could have changed because it does make more sense to use head to head

Could they make it season ending?  Bringing him back would only diminish their chances at landing the #1 pick.

Tough call!  A bears win puts the Giants ahead likely for good in the race for #2 but also kinda eliminates them from contention for #1.  A Panthers win muddies up waters and anything is in play. I could rooting for either side but since I believe Caleb williams is the clear QB1 I would say I'm probably rooting for the Panthers in the hopes the Giants can get in the game for the #1 pick.

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 08, 2023, 02:10:52 PMTake Harrison, Jr. He's a far better player than any of the remaining QB's.

In fact, he's also better than the two QB's already taken (repeating myself).

Also, you get your QB once you have a team that gives him a fair chance to succeed (also repeating myself).

Bob

That line of thinking makes sense when everything lines up perfectly but that rarely happens.  The Giants by virtue of stinking up the place this season have positioned themselves to be able to draft one of the top QBs coming out in a QB heavy draft.  It's quite literally the only good thing about this god forsaken season.  They can't pass up that chance because they are a year behind schedule.  Because we saw last year, even terrible teams can catch some breaks and win some games and all of a sudden a mostly lousy team is now in the playoffs without any hope of drafting a QB for the future.

If they only feel 2 QBs are worth tying their careers two, and both of them are gone, then I imagine they do go with Harrison and try to find somebody like Baker Mayfield who may not be special but could be good enough with the right pieces around him.  Not ideal but better than taking a QB that shouldn't be taken that high.  See Jones, Daniel for that precedent.

I expect them to easily fall into the top 3 and probably the top 2.  And if that's the case they will absolutely take a QB.  Even if they let that QB sit to start the season while Jones takes yet another beating.  From the minute Schoen got here 2024 was the target for when the tide would start to turn.  Unfortunately they won so many games last year some expectations got shifted, including by the front office, and they tried to adjust the plan by keeping Jones/Barkley.  In retrospect a mistake but not one that should cost them too much provided they come out of this next draft with a stud QB that can lead this team for the next decade. 

Quote from: ralphpal1 on November 08, 2023, 12:03:36 PMDaboll taking the kickoff against the jets in overtime shows me this year he has no idea what he is doing
Maybe the stress is getting to him
Most plays you can have an amswer for
There is no answer taking that kick in overtime
Thsy should of kicked off to the jets and have us win the game
Also we were minus 9 yrds the whole game
What was the reason

Tommy Devito was the reason.  He should have kicked off in OT though.

I just don't know what else he could have done.  When you're getting QB play the level that he's gotten this season it doesn't matter if you're Parcells, Belichick, Shanahan, Coughlin or anybody else.   You're going to lose and it's going to be ugly.  I wouldn't expect the Giants to be in many more games this year as long as Devito is starting so you can't really turn around and fire another coach after his 2nd season when THIS is the second season.

Last season just about every possible break went the Giants way.  Including getting to play Minnesota in the playoffs.  This year just about every possible break is going against them.  Next year...maybe they split the difference and look a lot better with a brand new QB leading the way and if so, Daboll will all of a sudden be a genius coach of the year again.

Quote from: AYM on November 07, 2023, 04:16:46 PMThis will be interesting to consider if somehow this team ends up over the next year or two in position to draft Riley Leonard.
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Oh I am well aware it's hypocritical but I've got PTSD when it comes to Duke QBs on the Giants. Although I'm willing to admit he might be good even though the others were not...I just want him to be good elsewhere.

Fortunately it seems highly unlikely the Giants even consider him. They are heading full steam into the Caleb Williams sweepstakes and if not him will be in position to draft Maye or McCarthy both of which will certainly grade out higher than Riley Leonard so as long as nobody falls full bloom in love we won't have to worry about another Duke QB on the Giants.

Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 08, 2023, 12:21:22 AMNo. It would have been dumb at anytime to trade future assets in a lost season.

That would be a very gettleman thing to do. And since the Giants have an actual GM who knows what he's doing they were never under any circumstances going to trade for Josh Dobbs.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 07, 2023, 02:49:56 PMIt's funny.   Some are saying Stroud will hopefully end helmet scouting.  I understood that some ding QBs from Ohio State due to their success rate in the NFL.

More times than I can count I read people saying "Well he's from Ohio State so look at all the Ohio State QBs that have flopped therefore he must not be any good". Baffles me.  Those QBs have nothing to do with THIS QB.  Forget the helmet and focus on the player.  Is he good or not?  Stroud was excellent last year, and this year Caleb Williams should be the #1 pick regardless of the fact that USC hasn't had a great track record with QBs.

This is exhibit A as to why the Giants should and likely will draft a QB in April.  You get the right guy and things can turn around almost immediately.  The Giants may well have a better overall roster than the Texans. You put a QB like that on this roster and they might actually be a real playoff team!

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 07, 2023, 12:11:55 PMI guess where Schoen could be a little bit questioned (even accounting for hindsight) is, if you were so unsure about Daniel that you put the two year out in there, then why not just tag him?

I guess the answer is because he knew he didn't want to sign Barkley for what Barkley and Kim were demanding and he didn't want to lose him given his relevance to a team that just on their first playoff game in a decade.

The irony in all of that is that simply tagging Jones and just signing Barkley to a 3y deal with a 2y out would have been much less costly to the organization in the medium term than what they actually did do was. Having to have Barkley for one more year at something like $13mm with a relatively easy cut after next season wouldn't be the end of the world if it meant we'd be 100% free and clear of Jones.

It's probably fair to say that in looking at this whole thing holistically, Schoen's scenario analysis may have been sub-optimal.

Do we know Barkley would have gone for that?  It would have been in his best interest to hit free agency I think.  Outside of them making him far and away the highest paid RB in the league I do think he elects free agency vs the team friendly 3 year that's really a 2 year deal.  My guess is, and it's only a guess, they knew the only way this offense could function at even a remedial level was with both Barkley and Jones together.  Since there were not adequate replacements for either of them.  And that they had a better chance to get Jones to sign a long term deal than Barkley.  Mostly due to the perception around the league that Barkley is one of the best at his position and Jones is one of the worst. 

So they got that deal done and slapped Barkley with a franchise tag with the hope that last year wasn't a mirage.  Turns out it very much was as we've seen, and now both of those guys should likely be done as Giants in the very near future. 

I don't really kill Schoen for this.  I understand the thinking it even if I don't necessarily agree.  If that's indeed what they were thinking of course.  I personally would have let Jones go and given Barkley a take it or leave it offer.  If we had to move on from both and position ourselves for a QB in 2024 so be it.  It's easy for me to say, not having to listen to all the blow back from the media and fans about how could you blow up a playoff team...but that's the job.  He needs to be objective and say yes, a bunch of flukey things led us to the playoffs last season but this is not a playoff team and we need a LOT of help in a LOT of areas.

Quote from: SUPERSEE on November 06, 2023, 08:11:40 PMobsession is right .. and wrong. thinking any rookie qb is going to come in and fight the ship is wishful thinking at best


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Seems to have worked out pretty well for the Texans.

Quote from: GloryDays on November 06, 2023, 05:10:58 PMWhat is this obsession with Caleb, as if he is Joe Burrow?!! I have watched him in a few games and he seems to have some issues, definitely not a top-5 talent, imo.

He's going to be the #1 pick in the draft unless he gets some sort of debilitating injury. And even then...maybe. So it's not just people here it's across the football world. He's off the charts talented. We'll see what happens in the NFL but there's very little doubt he's going to be the #1 pick to somebody... hopefully the Giants.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 06, 2023, 01:43:55 PMTagging him, with the benefit of hindsight, might have been the better option. But that would have for sure meant saying goodbye to Barkley, which I know many here have a huge problem with.

If Barkley had 1 more year on his deal and wasn't a FA yet, I think they tag Jones right away without hesitation.  But looking at last season as reality and not a mirage they couldn't just let one of those guys walk so at that point it does make sense for them to try and lock up Jones who didn't look THAT bad last year in the hopes he continues to improve rather than locking up Barkley forever and watching him fall apart.  But as was stated, the 2 year out indicates pretty clearly nobody was 100% sold on him and good on them for that.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 06, 2023, 01:45:31 PMIsn't Kyler close to coming back?

Even if they have decided they want to move on from Kyler, he is much better than whatever nobody they have out there at QB now. Having him back could mean they win a couple more games than we do.

As I understand it, they don't want to play him because they are going to cut him after the year but if he plays and gets hurt there's some weird clause in his contract that they have to pay him a bunch of money.  They want him gone but don't want to risk paying him that sum of money.