Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 11:04:19 AMMG, they've literally done that the last two years. You don't like the results but you think the results will be different over the next two years?

The Giants were the 5th worse team in the league 2 years ago (according to draft position) when Joe and Brian took over.   Two years later, they are now the 6th worst team (and PFF's worst QB support team) in the league.

I struggle to see how the team has "done that" in terms of building out the team.  Plus with all the coaching drama, I am not even sure they have the most basic foundational piece of proper leadership and culture.

@T200 @katkavage

Everything I hear is that the top 3 QBs will be going 1-2-3, so I think it's a given none of them will fall to 6.  It's possible you might be able to draft Nix, Pennix, or McCarthy in the second round or trade back up to the bottom of the round one to grab them, but that's pretty much it unless you want to take a flyer on one of the lesser QBs.

So, how do you guys propose solving the QB issues this off-season?

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 10:56:39 AMThis is a laundry list of complaints, not a plan. What's the plan other than pray for better draft picks? At least building around a new QB is a plan we can all wrap our heads around.

The plan is for you to start at the foundation.  You have the proper leadership that sets a winning culture and way of doing things.  With that in place, you start building up your talent, starting with the trenches.   You always keep an eye on the chance to acquire a franchise-caliber QB, but you don't compromise or reach on that acquisition. If it's not there, you keep on building up the team.   The better the team is when you draft the QB the better the chances that QB has of succeeding.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 10:47:26 AMObviously I disagree with your interpretation.

The major problem with this team since Eli got old is the QB position. Every other role has been turned over multiple times to no effect.

Either way, the supporting cast was extremely weak when they invested first round picks in Thibs, Neal, and Banks, second round picks in Robinson and JMS, and third round picks in Ezeudu, Flott, and Hyatt. There is no reason to believe, outside of blind faith, that if the Schoen regime continues to draft the way it has, that the supporting cast will improve to a championship or near championship level... which is the entire point of all of this.

Although, in the case of the Giants, perhaps winning a championship isn't the primary goal. I was listening to a podcast the other day, I think it was Lombardi, and he was talking about how Bill Walsh used to say he was only competing with about 6 other teams for championships. According to Lombardi, the other teams are primarily focused on keeping their jobs rather than building a program.

The Giants primary issues are first bad culture which allows for low expectations and excuse making. Second, poor QB play. And third, lack of talent and player development.

This is an organization that spins its wheels so consistently, they cut Kevin Zeitler so they could sign Kyle Rudolph.

Watch how quickly things change if they're able to get Jayden Daniels. The players they do have are going to look so much better.

Since before Eli "got old" the offensive line has been a problem.  Receiver hasn't been much better with the exception of a couple of the OBJ years.   Coaching has been an issue since the Giants moved on from Coughlin.   GM hasn't exactly been a strength since Reese had a couple of good years early in his career.

QB was going to be a "problem" regardless of who was throwing the football.  QBs can't do it all by themselves they need support of the team they play on.

The Giants won those meaningless games (Woopy! Yay! All real fans rejoice!) so they eliminated their chance to ensure a bright future by solidifying the QB position.  With that reality in mind, what do you think of this PFF mock draft?

https://x.com/rydunleavy/status/1750881673552482590?s=20

Former GM Jeff Diamond did an article on the 5 teams that need the most work (of course, the Giants were on the list).   You can see JD's summary of the past year at the link, and I posted how he sees the team fixing the issues.

https://www.the33rdteam.com/5-nfc-teams-with-the-most-work-to-do-in-2024-offseason/


NEXT STEPS, POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS


There's some speculation GM Joe Schoen will take a quarterback with the sixth overall pick in April and let Daboll groom him behind Jones for a year or two. I don't see the Giants giving up on Jones, who had a fine 2022 season. He went 10-7-1, including a road playoff win in Minnesota, completed 67.5 percent of his passes and had a 92.5 passer rating to rank 13th. Jones added 708 rushing yards — fourth best among quarterbacks — with seven touchdowns on the ground.

Schoen deemed Jones worthy of a four-year, $160 million ($92 million guaranteed) pre-free agency contract last March and the dead money is $69 million this year and $22 million in 2025.

So I see the Giants focused on keeping Jones and their offensive tackles healthy, further developing Neal and adding quality O-linemen in free agency (with their $37 million in cap space) and via the draft. More pass rush help via free agency would be beneficial. Safety Xavier McKinney just completed his best season (116 tackles, three interceptions) and should be a priority re-signing before he hits free agency in March.

The Giants have an extra second-round pick from trading Leonard Williams and they also could use an elite wide receiver to help Jones. That could come from free agency, the draft or the further development of recent high picks Wan'Dale Robinson (2022 second round) and speedy Jalin Hyatt (2023 third round).

Barkley's one-year, franchise-tag deal is up and the Giants should re-sign him in the range of the Jonathan Taylor contract. Taylor got an additional three years and $42 million so his deal averaged $11.6 million per year including the last year of his rookie contract.

And if there is any dysfunction on the coaching staff beyond the Daboll/Martindale issues, that needs to be cleaned up in a hurry. It's hard enough to win in the NFL when everyone is on the same page and extremely difficult if that's not the case. The Giants can return to the playoffs in 2024 if they get everything back on track.

When you are looking at this season's best RBs, I think this is one of the best stats to look at (along with yards per attempt and receiving stats)

It seems pretty clear Brian Daboll has some rough edges that need polishing.  Who better to help Brian Daboll take his coaching game to the next level than Bill Belichick?   Bill has the gravitas that I think Brian would heed his advice, and Bill certainly has a lot to offer.  Plus, if the Giants hire a less experienced DC, Bill would certainly be a good resource for that coach as well.


From Bill's perspective I would think a less demanding consulting job would be a better option than simply sitting out a year in the NFL and hoping he gets a HC job next year (when he is even older).

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/39388667/potential-candidates-giants-next-defensive-coordinator


Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
A look at the #Giants defensive coordinator search.

+ Dennard Wilson? A lot to like.

+ Jerome Henderson - The best chance for some continuity

+ Anthony Campanile - Can he be pried from Dolphins?

+ Shane Bowen - Actual play-calling experience


https://x.com/JordanRaanan/status/1750893892948435024?s=20

https://x.com/AndrewBrandt/status/1750869896857100485?s=20


https://x.com/RealTannenbaum/status/1750704429299298684?s=20

Quote from: T200 on January 26, 2024, 08:50:39 AMAs fans, we have a certain perspective that, at times, can be spot-on. More often than not, though, our thinking as fans preclude us from thinking like a real NFL GM. They have a lot more information at their disposal and many other factors that we, as fans, don't consider when it comes to making deals with players.

We can sit behind our keyboards and say a player is worth this draft pick or this amount of money. But, as I said, the value is set by the person making the deal. It may not be worth it to *US* but if a deal is made, it was worth it for the parties involved.

Tim,

My favorite people to listen to when it comes to football are former GMs.  I used to listen to HOF GM Bill Polian (who seems to have stopped generating content) as much as possible, I listen to former GM Mike Lombardi (his books and his podcast), I listen to former GM Randy Mueller (his Athletic show podcast on Saturdays), I listen to former GM Mike Tanebuem (guest on podcasts as well as 33rd team).  I also curate a Twitter list of former GMs and other football execs.

https://twitter.com/i/lists/1372238271502286848

I listen to former GMs so I can better understand how GMs think.   There is value in listening to former players and pundits, but to me, it's limited compared to listening to the men who actually did the job at the GM level. 

Quote from: madbadger on January 25, 2024, 08:49:06 PMHe isn't wrong. One of the two played at a pro bowl level and the other is middling. The middling player got a big contract and the pro bowler got the scraps. To make matters worse a rookie street free agent was more effective with the same talent. He's only putting voice to something everyone is thinking about.

It's pretty much a truism (which is why RBs are upset they are not getting paid) that it's foolish, and you almost always pay for past performance when you sign an RB to their first veteran contract.  It's why KT should focus on improving his own performance and spend less time publicly second-guessing his boss and worse giving his bosses BAD advice

Quote from: T200 on January 25, 2024, 06:59:57 PMMcCaffery, who is 100X better than Saquon, was traded for a pittance. I think you're hugely overrating Saquon's trade value.

Saquon's value is whatever a team is willing to pay him. We can debate our perceived worth for him all day but it doesn't matter what we think... only what a team will pay.

Tim,

Fans (myself included) tend to overvalue players on our team's roster.   I try to counter that inclination by pretending the player isn't on our team and what I would be willing to pay to acquire him rather than what I want for a player.  I find looking at what I would be willing to give up to get a player gives me a bit more of a realistic view of a player's value.

Take Barkley; the guy's special speed is gone, and he has shown he has limited value in the receiving game.  He can be a solid RB, but he's injury-prone and aging.   I wouldn't give up more than say a 5th round pick, if that.

I shared my view on Belichick; I will share the view of Bill's friend, Mike Lombardi.

The problem for Belichick is that people currently in these team buildings are defending their desks.  There is a lot of resistance when you have a coach that a team knows will make massive and major changes to a team.