Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Ed Vette on January 26, 2024, 01:26:13 PMWithout reading this entire thread, I think he was out of his lane commenting on this and I would imagine it didn't go down well with the brass. As a fan, I see it as dipping his toe in the water and I wonder what to expect of his future actions. He had to know that it would go viral and that tells me it's all about his ego and getting attention. I'm sure most of you disagree. It's going to take a while before I can get behind this guy.

I have to say, you summed it up well, Ed.  I share your view that a well-run organization people stick to their lane

https://x.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1750945791726813385?s=20

Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 26, 2024, 01:04:37 PMThe most important QB characteristic is not on your list - poise.

While accuracy, decision making, and leadership are crucial for a successful QB, it's poise that separates the great from the good / average / bad.

How does a QB respond to pressure - pass rush pressure, game situation pressure, playoff pressure, etc.? Because their ability to remain poised affects all of those other critical traits. A poised QB is more accurate, makes better decisions, and is a more credible and effective leader.

I think poise would fall under-  Resilience and Mental Toughness:

Quote from: Bob In PA on January 26, 2024, 12:59:59 PMRich: Do you mean "With the Giants POTENTIALLY in the QB market" or are you assuming since they pick very high in the first round they are obligated to be in the QB market?

Right now, they have three guys capable of delivering the ball to open men, if only: (1) they could get open; AND (2) they could have enough time to throw; AND (3) they could regularly run the ball successfully.

None of those things are happening, so I sincerely believe management is in the same quandary as the rest of us in trying to answer the question "do we draft a QB at all (let alone in the first round?).

Bob

Bob,

At one of his recent press conferences, Joe Schoen made it clear the Giants were in the market for a quarterback as they only have Devito and the injured Daniel Jones on the roster.  He was careful to say that he could go to the veteran market or the draft market, but either way the Giants are in the QB market.

Quote from: brownelvis54 on January 26, 2024, 01:00:09 PMI am sorry, but where is the draft? I dont see it Rich

https://x.com/PFF_Giants/status/1750870519153336360?s=20

Quote from: Gmo11 on January 26, 2024, 12:54:35 PMThat's not exactly fair.  They did make the playoffs in year one had Devito starting half the games in Year 2.  And he somehow went on a 3 game winning streak which made absolutely no sense.  With a real QB this team would have been in the playoffs again.

If you believe the NFL's worst team for supporting their QB, just needed a QB to contend, then all I can say is you are entitled to your opinion.   I can't help but remember that the terrible protection contributed to all those injuries, they just weren't "bad luck"

I started Wordle at around 8 this morning.  After 4 guesses I had eliminated many letters and only had the position of the A and the O.  I spent far too much time figuring out the answer and just now solved the puzzle.

With the Giants in the QB market, I have been reading scouting reports on QBs.  The reality is there is no perfect quarterback prospect; it often comes down to what one values in a quarterback.   With that being the case, what do you consider the most important traits in a quarterback prospect?



Being a successful NFL quarterback requires a unique combination of physical, mental, and emotional attributes. Here are some of the key traits:

Arm Strength/Arm talent: The ability to make all the throws on the field is crucial. This includes deep passes, tight-window throws, and passes with velocity.

Accuracy: Precision in throwing is critical. This means putting the ball where only the receiver can get it, and consistently hitting targets in stride.

Decision Making/Processing speed: A quarterback must quickly assess the defense, understand his offensive scheme, and make the right decisions in a matter of seconds.

Reading Defenses: Understanding defensive alignments and strategies is key to anticipating what the defense will do after the snap.

Mobility and Pocket Presence: The ability to move well in the pocket to avoid pressure, extend plays, and sometimes gain yards with their legs is increasingly important.

Leadership: Quarterbacks are often the leaders of their teams. They need to command respect, motivate teammates, and maintain composure in high-pressure situations.

Work Ethic and Preparation: Studying game film, learning the playbook, and preparing for various game situations are vital parts of being an NFL quarterback.

Resilience and Mental Toughness: The ability to bounce back from mistakes, endure physical hits, and handle the pressure of high-stakes situations is essential.

Situational Awareness: Understanding the context of the game, like down, distance, score, and time remaining, to make smart plays.

Communication Skills: Effectively communicating with coaches, teammates, and executing the play call in a loud, high-pressure environment.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 26, 2024, 12:26:05 PMAre there a lot of "elite" WRs in the 2nd round?  Or Diamond smoking something?

There are other things here that I am sure will be disagreed by fans.

I haven't really started getting into the draft, but it appears this year's WR class should be a really good and deep one.


https://draftwire.usatoday.com/lists/2024-nfl-draft-early-top-10-wide-receivers-for-an-epic-class/

Quote from: Fletch on January 26, 2024, 12:42:31 PMWhat 75% ?

I know you cannot be talking about the Lions. And you should not be thinking that was the Chiefs situation. The Chiefs had Alex Smith , a guy with a top 10 QBR multiple seasons; a 3x pro bowler; a leader in Y/PA in the league, a 2020 comeback player of the year. He had issues that could not get them over the hump or so people thought that with Jared Goff too .... so Daniel Jones is Alex Smith now? Not even close.

Of the 4 teams in the conference championship, three (49ers, Ravens, Chiefs) all had good teams before acquiring their QB.  Only the Lions had a poor team when they acquired Goff (a QB who had already developed).


If you expand this out to the teams from last week.  3 (the Bucs, Packers, and Bills) had solid teams before acquiring their QB and only the Texans had a weak team before getting their QB (although they acquired talent and a good coach while acquiring their QB)

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 12:13:28 PMI'll add an additional thought:

3. You are focused on results rather than objectives. If you look at the moves Schoen has made (not the results of those moves), he is clearly trying to build a foundation. Some of you are deflecting the fact that your preferred process is aligned with what Schoen has already done. It didn't work then and is unlikely to work now.

Doc,

We differ in that I see that the process was flawed.  You start with leadership. You bring in a solid GM and HC pairing (Schoen knew Daboll, and I am seriously wondering if Schoen failed in step one)

After you have that (which is in serious doubt), you start building the team, focusing on the trenches. Now, here is where we differ.  Do you think just throwing drafted players at the problem will fix it?  I believe it starts with having really good line coaches on both sides of the ball.  The Giants and Wink did that when they hired Andre Patterson to coach the defensive line, but Schoen failed badly, allowing Daboll to bring his buddy Bobby Johson with him from Buffalo (worse, Schoen worked with BJ and should have seen the problem).  Thanks to the failure to secure a quality O-line coach Schoen has sunk a ton of draft capital into the position with nothing to show for it.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 12:07:55 PMTwo additional thoughts for @MightyGiants:

1. That you read my statement as a personal attack says a lot. I challenge you to think more deeply about why I said what I said.

2. No one thinks the team is well built. The difference is some of us have accepted we can't get to well built without a QB.

To point number one, I will expand (since you asked).  Your commentary was a violation of point 7 of the 10 signs of intellectual honesty.


7. Address the argument instead of attacking the person making the argument. Ad hominem arguments are a clear sign of intellectual dishonesty. However, often times, the dishonesty is more subtle. For example, someone might make a token effort at debunking an argument and then turn significant attention to the person making the argument, relying on stereotypes, guilt-by-association, and innocent-sounding gotcha questions.

Plus number 9 is critical thinking skills.  Of those you violated

5. uncover assumptions and biases

and

11. understand your own biases and values

By assuming you knew what motivated me or how I was thinking you broke rule 5 (and to a lesser extent 11).  Plus, you are assuming you were free of your own biases or imposing your own values as you assume that anyone who hadn't agreed with you must be badly flawed.

I hope you find that enough consideration.


2. You really have a strange assumption/claim there.  For a team to be a contender, they need to have a franchise QB (you couldn't be more wrong claiming that I don't believe that to be the case).  The difference is you claim you can't build without a QB while I say that ideally a team needs a solid foundation before adding a QB.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 11:45:19 AMOf course you struggle to see it. You spent years building up a mythology around Daniel Jones and now you're disappointed. Just like the rest of the organization, you're stuck in a no man's land (otherwise known as QB hell).

What has the Schoen regime done that you have a problem with? They drafted the best edge rush prospect in their first draft, followed by a so-called can't miss ORT, followed by a dynamic slot receiver. Then they drafted a guy with shutdown corner ability, followed by the best Center prospect, followed by a deep threat WR.

They locked up All Pro talents at DT and OLT,and signed a near All Pro performer at ILB, all of whom are universally viewed as foundational pieces.

They've followed the roster building playbook exactly how any person who wants to diminish the impact of the QB position would want to build a roster.

The problem is the players they drafted aren't as good as their draft position would indicate (sound familiar?).

The coaching staff is a mess. The GM may or may not be in over his head. We don't know yet.

Where is this so-called plan for building the foundation and how is it any different than the plan they implemented over the last two years? Find better players. Beyond that, what? Wait for the Daboll/Schoen regime to implode (like so many of their predecessors)? What are we trying to get done here?

Doc,

Can we dispense with the personal attacks ("you spent years building up a mythology") and simply respectfully discuss football?


Bill Parcells says  "You are what your record says are."

If this team were so well built, you would have former GM Jamie Diamond listing the Giants among the 5 teams in need of the most work.

The Giants don't appear to be any closer to being contenders now than they were 2 years ago.

As for mistakes, both Schoen and Daboll have made many, from Schoen reaching on undersized players or spending a draft fortune on O-linemen while failing to get even one quality starter.   You can also throw in signing guys like Parris Campbell, trading for an injury-prone TE, acquiring too many slot WRs, keeping the wrong guys at cut down, trying to make RB Eric Gray the punt returner, wasting 12 million on Barkley, not exercising Daniel Jones' 5th-year option (which would have meant this was they would have been deciding this offseason what to offer Jones if they were inclined to sign him at all).  There was also Schoen letting now Pro Bowler Julian Love walk.  Schoen also traded away draft assets to get guys who barely contributed, Bogie Basham and Isiah Simmons.  Building in the trenches is important, and Schoen has failed to do that properly on both sides of the ball. 

Joe Schoen also has some responsibility for the coaching drama, as part of being a good GM is keeping the peace and resolving differences before they become toxic messes.


Perhaps Schoen's biggest shortcoming is he is singing Ronnie Barnes' praises instead of quietly getting the man responsible for the team's decade-plus "bad luck with injuries streak (aka being among the most injured team year after year).

Quote from: Fletch on January 26, 2024, 11:24:15 AMThe steps are coach, QB, everything else.

75% of the teams in the divisional and conference championship show this is NOT the way you build a contender.  It's coach/GM, solid talent base, QB, then fill any remaining holes.  Simply put, drafting a QB to a poor team stacks the odds against the QB prospect, while drafting a QB to a solid team greatly increases the chances for a QB to develop into a franchise QB.

Quote from: katkavage on January 26, 2024, 11:24:33 AMThat's what the GM gets paid to do. If they absolutely can't get one of those three via trades or whatever, they need to sign someone, or re-sign Tyrod Taylor to play QB until Jones returns. Though if they do that, unless Taylor gets hurt, he is a better QB than Jones so taking him out for Jones will not work. They will have to sign a middling option, bite the bullet on another down year, hope both Schoen and Daboll survive, and keep looking while we fans enjoy mediocrity.

Do you think signing Taylor (who struggles to stay healthy for a single game, much less a season) is a potential answer?   Tyrod is 34; he's at an age where players tend to become more injury-prone, not less.

At this point in time, I am not optimistic about the Giant's future going out the next few years (had Schoen traded away guys like Barkley and McKennie to ensure they were bad enough to get an elite QB {along with more draft picks}, I would be much more optimistic).  Since the Giants didn't, I really think they are in a situation where they will have to gamble with a lesser QB prospect and hope to hell they hit paydirt (while lacking the overall team quality that would help make it happen).   After two mediocre drafts and DJ's injuries, Schoen is going to need to pull off a draft for the ages for this team's fortunes to significantly improve.