Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 04:39:31 PMQuestion for you AP that I asked someone else and got the run around.  How do you explain a QB like Kirk Cousins who put up the season he did in 2015 in his first full season in Washington without a 1,000 yard receiver on the squad?

Sure his number have gone up in Minnesota with Diggs and now Jefferson but he was a productive passer even before he had elite weapons.

Cousins had Jordan Reed who was a Pro Bowl TE short of 40 yards for 1K receiving.

DJax was coming off a 1K season previous year and only play 9 games in 2015 but still managed to gain 528 rec yards and 4 TDs.  Garcon and Crowder picked up the slack with 1,381 rec yards and 8 TD combined.  Plus he has Morris who is also a Pro Bowl TE and Trent Williams who is a stud tackle.  Plus McVay calling the plays on offense.

That Washington team had weapons to work with.  You cannot compare with the 2022 Giants.  Let's say it's a wash between Thomas and Williams.  Saquon is better than Morris.  But to compare DJax, Garcon, Crowder and Jordan Reed to Slayton, James, Hodgins, it's not even close.

Plus Cousins had 3 years to learn the system before becoming the full time starter.  You weren't being given the run around but rather refuse to accept the truth with your blind hatred for Jones.  But hey I get it.  Each one of us is entitled to our own opinion right?

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 09:29:06 PMDifference between the two in their careers will be that Cousins put up good numbers with little to work with in Washington.  When Cousins got weapons in Minnesota his production increased but not drastically. 

As far as the Giants offense opening up I wouldn't expect last week's offense to be used this week or again this season unless they play Minnesota in the playoffs. 

I wouldn't call Morris (Pro Bowl RB), DJax (Pro Bowl WR), Garcon, Crowder and Reed (Pro Bowl TE) as "little to work with" relative to the situation DJ was placed in.  On top of that McVay orchestrating the offense.  We've seen what he did with Goff.  I would argue that the circumstance Cousins was placed in as a favorable one rather than handicapping what he is capable of.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 09:29:06 PMDifference between the two in their careers will be that Cousins put up good numbers with little to work with in Washington.  When Cousins got weapons in Minnesota his production increased but not drastically. 

As far as the Giants offense opening up I wouldn't expect last week's offense to be used this week or again this season unless they play Minnesota in the playoffs. 

They ran it vs the Commanders the previous week as well.  Let's see of the trend continues or they pivot back to the run/play action.

One side is keep running it and get more reps to continue to develop the chemistry with DJ and the WRs.  Since going forward and even into the plays offs all teams possibly going in are in the top 10 in pass defense.

The counter argument is that going back to the run/play action puts less tape out there for teams to dissect and gameplan against.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 26, 2022, 09:11:07 PMThat's the problem though, no QB has ever started 4 years, had the same basic stats 4 years straight and then progressed after that 4th year into something more than he was already. It's never happened to my knowledge and if I remember correctly from talking with @kingm56 about the subject. So then you would be hoping Jones was a statical anamoly and took a leap in year 5 that didn't transpire at any time in the first four seasons. One or two games a season isn't flashing, that's probably luck. No coincidence his best two games this season are against 2 of the worst passing defenses in Jacksonville and Minnesota.

My reasoning being that we just started to open up the pass game more instead of leaning heavily on the run & playaction.  More favorable statistically for QBs.

Also were running our pass offense with less ideal talent on the WR core.  Hodgins has been a breath of fresh air but his speed will not put the fear in any defense.  Slayton has speed but has been consistently inconsistent catching the ball on tight windows or the DB playing more press on him.  With better skill position players to execute the scheme its something to look forward to.

I can be wrong here but that's what I'm basing it on.  And that's what Tynes was alluding to that in that segment by the NY Post.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 08:54:29 PMPlaying is the best type of experience to learn from.  Yet in Cousin's 4th season (first starting) he put up numbers that Jones hasn't even approached.  Talent around them is not the difference between them.  Cousins is and has been the better QB.

Yes Cousins may be the better QB now, but going forward I like where DJ can continue to progress and develop.  He's been playing efficient offense and not necessarily QB stat friendly offense but that's what he's been asked to do.

Now that we started opening up the pass offense, DJ can only continue to get better.  Put better skill position WRs around him and see how it with dynamically change our pass game.

Not to mention DJ has the running ability unlike Cousins.  Those deeper routes vs man to man with the DBs backed turned and DJ can pick up yards with his legs.

We've seen Cousins ceiling right now with the best WR in the league.  I'd go out on a limb that going forward DJ has a higher ceiling than Cousins if he continues in his development.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 08:34:26 PMThere's always excuses for Jones.  At what point do they go away?  When things are perfect around him?

Since we're comparing Jones with Cousins and are expecting the same stats we also have to take some things into consideration.

We can even argue Cousins had the luxury of sitting out 2 years.  Half a season in his third year and full time starter in his fourth year.  With McVay calling his plays.  I'd argue you can't ask for a better situation than that. 

He'll even Zach Wilson can benefit from having that kind of time to sit out and learn and have an good offensive mind teaching him.  The Jets didn't have that and after just 2 seasons he will be likely playing for another if ever will be given the chance to do so.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 08:02:36 PMKirk Cousins had a 4,000+ yard 70 comp % 29 TD 2015 season with no 1,000 yard receiver.

Trent Williams - LT
Alfred Morris - RB (made his second pro bowl albeit as a replacement to McCoy)
Garcon, Crowder and DJax - WRs
Jordan Reed - TE was 48 yards shy of 1K yards receiving (eventually made the Pro Bowl in 2016)

Most importantly their OC was Sean McVay

If you compare that with DJ.  The talent level at WR and TE is still not comparable to what we have now.  Two of whom were pick ups from Practice Squads of other teams.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 12:16:44 PMIt's year 4.  He's had multiple Head Coaches, Coordinators and players around him.  At some point it needs to be about him.

For some context, the Giants have 6 games with NFC East teams all of which are in the top 10 in pass defense and with stud pass rushers.

Throw in the Packers at #3, the Bears at #12 and the Texans at #13.  Thats 8 games against the top half of the NFL versus stout pass defenses.  Make it 9 games with the game this week vs the Colts who is ranked #10 in pass defense and #11 in team sacks.  That's not too shabby considering we've only started to open up the passing game 2 weeks ago against Washington.

https://youtu.be/2hRZ30wF0Ss

Even Tynes went out on a limb and argued that DJ was the better QB on the field that game.  Give DJ Jefferson and he would have passed for 400 yards easy that game against the Vikings.  He showed command of the offense, decisive, made/extended plays with his legs and took some shots down the field.  His one glaring mistake was throwing the ball behind Hodgins which led to the pick.  But that's where with better talent like a shifter WR like Wan'Dale would create separation or even Slayton who is faster would leave and aging Peterson in the dust. 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 06:03:57 AMLooking strictly at raw sacks without considering time to throw is literally going halfway down the path towards reality. Jones sits in the pocket longer than any other QB in the league. Obviously it's all the receivers' fault though and can't possibly have anything to do with processing speed, pre-snap read capability, or field vision.

That number is always skewed since DJ can scramble to buy more time and not to mention the amount of playactions we run especially earlier in the season.