Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: BlueMoshik on October 03, 2023, 08:29:06 AMI am hoping these are severe growing pains with a new regime that is clearly an upgrade over the previous regime. Think back to the 1980 season, the second year for GM George Young and his head coach Ray Perkins. The Maras had finally been sidelined after the Fumble in 1978. In 1979 they show signs of life, going 6-10 but showcasing a rookie QB named Phil Simms and a very decent defense. In 1980 they went 4-12 after starting 1-3. But in 1981, they go 9-7, make the playoffs and start the road to recovery. This situation is different, but it's possible the Schoen-Daboll regime is going through sophomore blues before the team can blossom. The Maras, for now, are still sidelined, thank god. What I saw last year was very encouraging. This isn't Joe Judge and Dave Gettleman and John Mara making major decisions, no way.

You are on the right track with this but I was thinking more 1983 than 1980. With the former, the team was still in the "Wilderness Years" before breaking through in '81 with LT and their first playoff win. By '83, Parcells inherited the team from Perkins and learned the hard way not to try and please everyone and to do things his way. I am wondering if Daboll may be experiencing a little of that dilemma himself with his staff as he tried to build on last season's successes.

Something to ponder.

Oeace!

Get rid of the head coach.
Get rid of the QB.
Draft a new QB.
Get a brand new OL.
Fire the OL coach.
Fire the Special Teams coach.

Screw it, Fire everybody!

Sounds like the same old, same old when you have injured players.

Oops, Fire Ronnie and his entire staff!

There, everyone feel better now?

While we're at it, 🔥 the damned Sardine Can and rebuild the old Giants Stadium in its original likeness.

Send Parcells through a time machine and have him come back 40 years younger. Belichick and the BBWC too! Throw in Simms and his old line and Mark Bavaro.

Now we have something, right?

Thank goodness Collingwood defeated Brisbane in an epic Grand Final over the weekend to claim the AFL Premiership. Last night's fiasco was an ambivalent exercise to me and I enjoyed Payton and Eli instead.

Ugly first quarter of the season, folks.

Peace!

The way it's supposed to be!

Harry Carson - Captain For Life

Peace!

Some people say it's all in the stars ...

Others say it's all in the cards ...

I say "rubbish" to them all!

I declare the winner based on the most important factor of them all!

Tomorrow, late night (or early Saturday morning, on the East Coast), is the Grand Final, or the Championship Match of the Australian Football League. My Collingwood Magpies are in for the first time in five years and haven't won it all since 2010. Their opponents, the Brisbane Lions, are every bit as huungry and ferocious as their name might suggest. The two teams faced off in back-to-back Grand Finals in 2002 and 2003, with Brisbane coming out on top in both occasions.

So, you might conclude that if the Magpies (i.e. a team named after a bird) win, it's a sure-fire thing the Seahawks will prevail on Monday Night, right? Well, not so fast! These birds from down under are the good guys and, if they pull this one off, I declare a Giant upset in the Sardine Can on Monday Night!

22-19 Giants!

Peace!

Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on September 26, 2023, 09:58:29 PMSmith had an unreal defense that carried him. He was not the reason for the success of those teams. And that is the model for Jones to succeed. But that is a problem because you can't maintain that talent level once a QB is paid.

Funny, I remember Smith carrying the defense against New Orleans in the 2011 Divisional Playoff game where Drew Brees cut holes in the 49ers' defense and Smith kept leading the offense and matched Brees score for score until he tossed the winner to Davis with nearly no time left to win 36-32.

Even in the NFC Championship game, Smith and Manning played to a draw with both defenses taking the game over. It came down to turnovers by the special teams which proved the difference.

Even in 2012, Smith had the 49ers at 6-2 before a concussion ended his career in SF. Harbaugh helped Smith resurrect his career and he sustained a period of demonstrated performance, self-confidence and leadership before he sustained that concussion. But history will show that Kaepernick brought a dynamic skillset to the SF QB position which transformed that offense and Harbaugh decided to roll the dice and ride it all the way to the Super Bowl where the 49ers just fell short in the end.

The 49ers traded Smith to the Chiefs in 2013 and Andy Reid further helped Smith develop and he had five solid performance seasons for the Chiefs.

So, I'm still not seeing the analogy between Smith and Jones. Especially since Jones hasn't been "carried" by anyone on his team, maybe that's where I'm missing the boat. You tell me.

Peace!

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 26, 2023, 03:59:20 PMI will add a couple of other thoughts:

1) I am not sure it's wise to rush to judgment and declare after three games the Giants need to draft a new QB

2) History has proven over and over again, it's a lot easier to say, "Just draft an elite QB", than actually drafting an elite QB.  There are plenty of elite QB prospects who are backups, on the practice squad or out of the game; the league is littered with them.

I like your list, Rich @MightyGiants , and I wouldn't be so fast to compare Jones to Smith either since the latter had  to deal with injuries early in his career that would compare closer to Phil Simms. His gallantry, toughness and on-field leadership were evident as he was a clear choice as team captain for the 49ers and, although he wasn't Pro Bowl material in those early years, USA Today made him a clear-cut choice for their "All Joe Team" for two consecutive seasons (2011-12).

As for his first six seasons (i.e. 2005-10), Smith does align with Jones in that he had a new offensive system to learn every year, had incompetent head coaches (i.e. starting with Mike Nolan, who was fired midway through the 2008 season for coach Mike Singletary taking over the rest of the season and was offered the job full-time. Singletary lasted two full seasons before he was fired in 2010 and replaced by Jim Harbaugh in 2011) yet showed glimpses of promise which appeared to justify his #1 overall picking in the 2005 NFL draft.

Yet falling short in the 2011 NFC Championship, and getting off to a 6-2 start in 2012, Smith was knocked out in a game against the Rams and left concussed. Kaepernick took over and the teams ended the game in a draw. Kaepernick started the following week, played well and won. Harbaugh stuck with him, Smith never started another game for the 49ers, and we know how that all played out in the Super Bowl. There is no comparing Jones to Smith there. Smith was traded to the Chiefs and had five productive seasons under Andy Reid. But none of those went any further than the Divisional Round of the playoffs. The 2018 move to Washington is well documented, with his nasty injury, and near-miraculous comeback, and playing until he retired in 2020.

Alex Smith never won the big one. He came within an overtime period of getting to the big dance; however, fate was shining on the Giants' side that evening. The following season, he suffered a fate worse than Phil Simms experienced in 1990 when he returned from his concussion only to realize he lost his job for good. For what ... a 6-2 start? Well, even though it took a couple of years, at least Phil got his starting job back in 1993 and, although it ended two steps short of a dream season, to have that one final hurrah in Giant Big Blue makes that season one I will cherish for the rest of my life.

Right now the Giants and Daniel Jones are about where the 2007-08 49ers were at in their development and that includes both quarterbacks. There are more growing pains to be had and instant gratification turnarounds are very rare in this league. They take time and Schoen and Daboll are only at Phase II of the rebuild process. It doesn't always go perfectly and playing against two of the best defenses in the NFL have made that pretty obvious.

Finally, a model, or as we call it a "simulation," is an analysis of a product's (NOTE: in this case, a quarterback) functional performance over time taking into account a number of variables (NOTE: let's call them "environmental constraints"). There are no absolutes for a Daniel Jones at this stage of his career and, especially so, given the state of rebuild the team is in. So, the simulation needs to play out a bit and the variables the head coach programs into the product's (i.e. QB's) memory may alter the result as the season progresses.

I, for one, am expecting to see something completely different this coming weekend. I say so because it HAS to be different in order to yield an improved expected outcome.

Peace!

Look, I spent the better part of last year calling the Cardinals a dumpster fire because that's exactly what they were at the time.

They have a new GM (Ossenfort who, in case you forgot, was a strong candidate for the Giants' GM role), new head coach in Gannon, and maybe the best thing that could have happened in Murray being on the injured reserve for a good chunk of the season to allow Dobbs a chance to start fresh on a new team.

They've played competitively in all three games against NFC East teams so far. They'll have a much more difficult time against San Francisco this weekend but it will be a good litmus test against a 49er team that toyed with the Giants.

The Cardinals are NOT a tanking team by any stretch!

Peace!

You practice hard, you work hard, you make your breaks and sometimes the breaks fall your way. That happens when you are a good football team. The opposite also holds true, most of the time. Your observations were keen, and spot on, but the 49ers are a much better team than the Giants right now and that's what happened.

Look, Bill Parcells' 1984 Giants went through the same thing during Bill Walsh's masterpiece 15-1 season while defeating the Giants and Bears before dismantling the Dolphins to cap one of the greatest seasons in NFL history. Don't think for one second that Parcells didn't use the 31-10 MNF loss, as well as the 21-10 Divisional Playoff defeat as a springboard to improve the team so they could compete against the league champions in the future. Sure enough, they got their revenge in the 1985 NFC Wild Card Game when the 49ers came to Giants Stadium for the first ever Giant home playoff game there and defeated their nemesis 17-3. Only a season later, when the Giants were ready to claim the NFL Championship, they gave the 49ers some retribution of past playoff defeats in the now-legendary 49-3 Divisional Playoff victory.

Daboll is going to have to find a way to get better and compete with the boys by the bay because his team isn't prepared to carry their jock strap at this point.

It's over and nothing can be done about it right now. Onto the Seattle game which becomes an important home game.

Peace!

Quote from: Ed Vette on September 24, 2023, 07:24:46 PMI'm happy for Gannon and Dobbs. It was nice seeing the young HC run off the field trying to hold back a xxxx eating grin. Good for them.

Ossenfort and Gannon have only taken baby steps in rebuilding the Cardinals and may realize they would be better off without Murray when it is all said and done. It will be interesting to see what happens once he's cleared to practice.

Taking out Dallas was a good start to their 2023 campaign. Hoping they can better represent themselves against the 49ers next week than the Giants did this week.

Peace!

Thank you for sharing this. It makes you appreciate how much he has absorbed early into his second professional season. But, it also shows what a gifted group of athletes he has to throw to, as well as protect him.

The kid has the right temperament as a young quarterback who is still very much a sponge but can, for the most part, execute Shanahan's system and yield results. He won't always have the luxury of the line and talent of CMC, Deebo, Kittle and the others throughout his career. But he is in an ideal situation to develop into a consistent outstanding performer.

Finally, J.T. O'Sullivan was the 49ers' QB about 15 years ago. I remember the 2008 Giants beating him up in the old Giants Stadium but he kept fighting on. The Giants won that game 29-17, I think, but I remember he was a fighter that day.

Thanks again!

Peace!

Quote from: LennG on September 23, 2023, 12:30:28 PMOK, Ed. Maybe  I wasn't clear. I don't think Jones was intentionally throwing soft easy passes just to pad his stats, but it seems as if that is his motif if you know what I mean. He is a lot more comfortable with a throw like that than hanging in there and making a better play. PLUS, if you remember during the game, they had a stat on the TV about Jones and his passing while under duress (I think it was something like 2-8) and while not under duress which was something like 12-16. So if he was able to throw 12 passes not under duress and had completions with them, they all were under 10 yards. Add to that, Purdy was rushed the entire game, something like 80% of his drop-backs, yet he fired off several long passes to his WRs that were caught or had a PI on them. Purdy has all of 10 games of experience, yet he trusts his WRs to catch something he throws up. This is Jones's 5th year and we still are talking the same old, same old, every week. Purdey is making the absolute minimum for an NFL player. Yet Jones is making 40 Mil a year and he can't throw a deep pass to a more than speedy WR? Really, something is wrong with this scenario.

Hi Lenn,

I like your observation here. I think what you witnessed on Thursday is less of a 5th year QB versus a 2nd year Mr. Irrelevant. The latter, whom I watch almost on a weekly basis, is a diamond in the rough for Shanahan's offensive system and his work ethic, as was described on the pre-game profile of him, shows this kid has a passion and determination about him which that 49ers team feeds off of and everything just "clicked" when he took the field as a starter last year. The kid has yet to lose a game in this league! (NOTE: I'm not counting that NFC Championship last year because of his injury; I still feel he would have beaten the Iggles had that injury not occurred).

Maybe that's all it is. Even Mr. Irrelevant can have the "it" factor. Seems like it's so in San Francisco.

As far as the Giants are concerned, I share your frustration that the offense, as a whole, has disappointed us greatly to start the season.

Peace!

Quote from: T200 on September 22, 2023, 02:39:48 PMThey need to recalculate the weight of missed tackles. He's credited with 9 solo tackles, 4 for a loss. One of the few defensive bright spots last night.

Giants' Player of the Week, and it isn't even close the first runner up.

Forget the stat sheet, that kid was all over the place and his picture-perfect tackle on McCaffrey belongs on the season highlight reel.

Peace!

Quote from: T200 on September 23, 2023, 07:11:43 PMMeh... what goes around, comes around.

Plenty of folks here were gloating when Kadarius Toney had a case of the dropsies and cost KC the game in the season opener.

Then we go 6 quarters before scoring. And now a team is talking smack about our QB after they beat us. Stones and glass houses aren't a good combination.

Don't want them to talk smack? Play better.

EXACTLY!

DO something about it! You punch 'em  square in the jaw, and keep doing it, until they don't want to get punched anymore.

It's true the Giants' offense did get smacked around in the end when it became one-dimensional. But I thought the defense, penalties and all, played hard and kept them in it for the better part of three quarters which is all you could ask.

All this other crap about the 49ers saying this or that is kind of funny because the Giants were jawing right back at them during the game. We've seen this before going as far back as Parcells and Walsh in 1984 and again with Parcells and Seifert in 1990. These two teams simply do not like each other, and the 49ers are still pi$$ed off at the Giants for ruining their "three-peat" as well as their 2011 NFC Championship.

This is why the Giants need to get better in order to renew this rivalry which is good for the entire league. I'll tell you it's far better than SF-Dallas which is a BS "beauty pageant," instead of a football rivalry. Besides, the 49ers continue to wipe the floor with the Cowboys anyway so there's no rivalry to see there anyway.

Like them or not, the 49ers are the best team in football right now and only the Chiefs can put them in their place during the Super Bowl. A lot can happen between now and then and it probably will. But nobody out of the NFC can lay a glove on them right now and that include the Iggles. A full game with Brock Purdy will demonstrate that.

Peace!

Quote from: Rambo89 on September 23, 2023, 07:07:49 PMThat was also the year they signed Burress and the first full season of Eli Manning as their Starting QB.  So to say it was because they drafted Snee simply isn't true.  Because there were other factors as well that led to that increase in production mainly the QB's play.

The most important factor, which needs to be included here, is Tiki Barber's MVP season (NOTE: despite the fact the league gave it to Seattle's Shaun Alexander) and that 2002 line helped him achieve 1,860 yards rushing that season.

Kareem McKenzie also joined the Giants in 2005 to stabilize the RT position. Shaun O'Hara and Chris Snee were acquired in 2004, David Diehl in 2003, and Luke Petitgout at LT. The O-Line came together and played well for most of the season and considerably better than the previous two seasons.

The young Eli Manning had Barber and Jacobs in the backfield, Toomer and Burress and his primary receivers, Shockey as his TE, and a rebuilt offensive line that was in the process of synergizing into a cohesive unit. It was a surprisingly good season with a terrible ending in getting goose-egged in the Wild-Card round against Carolina.

But the line would continue to develop as Petitgout broke his leg in 2006, prompting Diehl to move to left tackle and bringing in Rich Seubert as left guard. Rich, who had been with the Giants since 2001, and had recovered from a nasty leg fracture in 2003, worked his way into becoming a full-time starter in 2007. That was the final piece of the Super Bowl Offensive Line which would help Eli make history in Super Bowl XVII and terrorize the league in 2008 with the best all-around running game with Earth, Wind and Fire.

Peace!

I want to give kudos to the "King" for the time and effort in putting the data and analysis together to start this thread. QB discussion aside, there are some good points for discussion on how the Giants have, at an individual level, closed the gap against their divisional rivals' individuals.

But rarely do individuals win games, much less titles. So, it still comes down to how the Giants' offense, defense and special teams units, respectively, have closed the gap against their divisional peers in preparation for the season ahead.

While there is no question the Giants have made the most strides in improving their defense, collectively, they have significantly improved their offensive skill positions, and one of the line positions, but questions remain whether JMS Jr., and another year together for the incumbents, will be enough to demonstrate collective growth, and overall improvement, of the offensive line which will be the catalyst for improving the overall offensive performance.

The special teams has an ace in the hole with Graham Gano but continued concerns remain by the decision to give the Scottish Hammer another year to resolve the issues in his skillset. One more issue, such as a dropped ball during a punt attempt, a field goal attempt, or even an extra point attempt, may be the one issue that could break the Giants' chance to make the post-season in what will be a tough season where every mistake will be far more costly than last season. In other words, Gillan has far greater pressure on him, this season, to become an excellent cold weather punter/holder or this will be the end of the line for his career (think of Matt Dodge). The NFC Rivals have better special teams in all which is why I remained puzzled as to why the Giants stayed with Gillan. Head-scratching continues this year and a bald spot has begun to show on the top of my head (NOTE TO SELF: make appointment with doctor for hair loss treatment).

Peace!

Peace!