Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 22, 2024, 02:49:59 PMIt's kind of funny.  Mike Lombardi (in his latest podcast) said if he was DJ's dad, he would be calling Daboll, wanting to know why he was trying to get his son killed with all those QB draws (the runs up the middle you were describing).

There have been runs where DJ failed to get the first down, where, to my eye, he would have picked up the first-down yardage in the past.  I don't think he's running scared, so to speak, I just don't think he's fully recovered from his ACL.  Despite his impressively quick return to action (a testament to his work ethic in rehab), the conventional wisdom seems to still hold that it takes at least a full year to fully recover.  Seeing how DJ tore his ACL in early November and didn't have surgery until late November, he has at least another month or so to get to the year mark (and hopefully full recovery, his new peak potential).

To my eye, DJ doesn't seem as fast or as quick to accelerate than he has in previous years.

I bet there is an impact in his running game from no longer having Barkley too.  Jones and Barkley showed their potential when both healthy in 2022.  Hard to sustain the load they carried that year though.  The offense took a different direction in 2023 maybe as effort to lighten the load or maybe for the same reason the last 2 games were different than the prior two (I still don't know what that reason is, but it hasn't worked out well for Jones).

Quote from: coggs on October 20, 2024, 08:38:53 PMYou are asking the chef to make a delicious meal out of horse manure.  Can't be done.

They defeated Seattle and had Dallas completely out of gas on final two offensive drives of the game.  The play calling in those two games were night and day with what we saw today.  They focused on the run and letting their defense shine in those games.  Why today without their start OLT did they decide to pass nearly every play of the first half? 

I think it's fair to evaluate coaches based on what they are doing to get the best talent out of the team.  I defended the play calling in the Dallas game because I think the coaching staff kept the team in the game.  Today, the game plan seemed doomed from the first snap.  Maybe it was the return of Nabers or Philly's run defense?   

Yes it's bad that the offense can't execute a typical playbook (a combo of QB/OL/WR struggles) but when a coach calls plays they can't execute, what's that suppose to prove?  Should Daboll take the rest of the season off and let an assistant gain some experience because team talent isn't good enough so he shouldn't be subjected to play calling evaluation? I think Daboll is going to lose the confidence of the club with pour game plans and bad personnel decisions (e.g. Gano).  He's going need to prove his resiliency in the remaining games. 

Quote from: kingm56 on October 20, 2024, 02:50:48 PMIt's cliche for fans to blame play calling when the players fail to execute.  Fans have blamed the OC for over a decade now. 

My critique of the coaching was independent of my critique of Jones ability.

If you were a coach of team with QB who couldn't throw the ball well, would you call a bunch of passing plays because that's how the game is played and point your figure at the QB for failing to execute during the post game press conference?  Or would you adjust your game plan?

Quote from: MrGap92 on October 20, 2024, 02:25:04 PMHow can anyone question playcalling?

You lock onto one receiver every play it doesn't matter wtf is called

By running the ball by definition the QB can't lock onto a receiver every play.  Locking in on an occasional play action pass works out pretty well too.  The game plan is egregious.  Their star WR is just returning after a concussion and their all pro LT is out and they come out of the gate throwing on nearly every play?  What could go wrong?  What about this season or the last three years that would indicate this game plan would be a good idea?  I know your point was more about DJ than the coach but what does that tell you about the coaching if they see the same thing?

Can we please just run the ball on 1st down?  A two yard gain would be a huge improvement over what we've been seeing.  Even down by two scores they need to commit to running the ball so they can at least move forward and run the clock down a bit.  Jones is going to get beat up in a pass first offense and the defense will be out of gas by Q4 at this rate.  Think of the Dallas defense in Q4.

I just don't understand it, Andrew Thomas is out and so the game plan is to pass every down in a zero zero ballgame?

3rd and 3 and they don't run it?  Even if they get two yards they could go for it on 4th and 1.  Think of the time of possession swing and field possession they missed out on.  Where did the offense from two weeks ago go?

I wish they would run the ball and eat some clock.  I'm not a fan of the opening all pass drive. I hope Nabors doesn't get another concussion this game, DJ is probably going to throw his way a ton this game.

I think a lot runs for little gain instead of an incomplete pass or sack were a reason they were in a position to win.  Dallas is a better team.  Dallas's defense was completely out of gas for the Giants final drive.  The 2022 Giants with Barkley/Jones fresh legs (and better arm?) win that game.  I don't think Jones's completion percentage would have been as high as it was without staying committed to the run throughout the game.  This game plan gave them a chance to win.  Sub out a few 2nd down runs for incomplete passes and what happens to the time of possession?  Did the running game give Thomas an edge against Parsons in passing downs?  Obviously if they picked up more yards than they did on 2nd down they would have had a higher chance of winning but their lack of an average yard per carry doesn't mean it was a bad strategy.  They lost by five points to Dallas and Jones was sacked only once.  Last year they lost by 40 in their first game and 32 in their second and Dallas won 14 of their last 15 against the Giants. 

Is it unfortunate that I'm arguing that the margin of defeat is narrowing rather that talking a winning team?  Of course, but the Giants have been a bad team for a long time and here we are.  I don't think last night's running strategy is why they lost, I think it's why they almost won.

Jones threw a better deep ball earlier in his career so that was a little concerning last night.  A deep ball with an ever-present run option synergize. 

The issue I had with the coaching was not rotating Nabers out more after some of the hits he took.  But other than that, I think they kept their composure and gave the team a chance to win at any point in time.  That terrible face masking call could have been the difference.       
 

Offense play calling night and day from last season.  I thought it was great seeing a FB in the formation and the designed Jones run.  This plays to Jones strength and can keep their defense fresh by eating up clock. 

I think with Daboll's first year it was:

1) DJ's comeback from his neck injury, i was shocked he'd play again, let alone be a running QB.
2) An offense over relying on Barkley carries and Jones runs that occasionally set up a deep throw (Slaton) or would keep defenses honest.  This ate up clock and kept games close until the 4 quarter where they could get lucky.  The running game helped Neal out at the beginning of his career. 
3) A Defense with both Lawrence and Williams on the inside and Jackson and Mckinney having career years up until the bye week complemented their offense ball control style.  Losing Jackson and Mckinney took a toll on the second half of the season.  Thibodeaux had a good start to his career in that defense.     
4) Dex and Barkley high snap counts got them their win against Minnesota but playing Philidelphia short a day's rest meant it wasn't going to be a fair matchup after their bye week.

In year 2
1) The offense approach changed as evident by the Waller signing.  Jones had kept defenses honest by being a threat to run rather than making various reads and yet the coaches this season seemed to expect him to be more of a traditional passer. 
2) Thomas getting injured early followed by JMS's inexperience and injuries and Neal completely ill equipped for the additional responsibilities made the new scheme the worst possible pairing with the talent on the team.
3) Jones was eventually injured.  So was Taylor.  Who wouldn't be in that scheme with that line?
4) Snap counts on defense wore them down and they got mad at the offense and team chemistry broke down.
5) DeVito is unexplainable. period.  Kids dream of one day suddenly starting for their favorite team in an emergency.  Adults do too.  Even adults in mid-life.  It happens in the movies.  But in real life it does not happen.  To win three games?  none of it is real.  can't be.  unexplainable. 

What role did Daboll have in year 1 vs year 2?
Direct coaching impacts such as the change in offense scheme.  Indirect coaching impacts such as team chemistry breaking down.  The unprofessional open back and forth with Wink.  Players not playing up to their previously demonstrated potential.  His meltdowns on the sideline signaled he wasn't in control.   


McAdoo's first year is essentially explained by the FA signings and cycles of cap space flux:
DE Olivier Vernon
DT Damon Harrison
CB Janoris Jenkins

plus the club came off of JPP's hand that year.  Think about this DL: DE Vernon, NT Harrison, DT Hankins, DE JPP.  Jenkins was flanked by DRC at CB and Collins had his breakout year as a SS.  Although the OL had vulnerabilities Richburg played the full season at Center and Pugh at OLG had a great season except for the games he missed later in the season due to the MCL injury.  Eli to OBJ connection and McAdoo's quick pass offense helped compensate for their offensive tackle play.   

I think year 2 was explained by injuries and a disastrous offseason roster strategy (remember the shiny hood ornament debates?):
The Giant only got 4 games from Richburg and 8 games from Pugh (of which ORT rather than OLG).  The Eli to OBJ connection couldn't make up from that loss of OL talent.  Unsurprisingly neither did the addition of Engram (who was selected ahead Ramczyk) and Brandon Marshall (who was signed instead of Whitworth).  This was also the year OBJ got hurt and Marshall was hurt around the same time 5 games into the season.  McAdoo felt it was the right time to end Eli's streak.  There were also multiple player suspensions that season.  It was an ugly lost season.         

I haven't thought about Shurmur and Judge in a long time so might have to come back to it later.  I think with McAdoo and DaBoll's tenures it was the shock of going from legitimate playoff teams to disarray so quickly.     

Quote from: Ed Vette on September 16, 2024, 04:09:41 PMSometimes the other team just makes a great play. But I agree, it wasn't as tight as it could have been. TC should have made a video on this.

To see the impact of how Coughlin corrected Tiki's fumbling problem and encouragement to focus on free weight squatting had on his career defines what we mean when we say good coaching can bring out the best in a player.  It's a shame how Tiki walked away from the Giants.  In his last few seasons, I thought he was the best running back in the league.  Think of how many hours of debate this board had on the Barkley decision that centered around the signing a running back to second contract and expected diminished ability.  Tiki was playing his best football at the end of his career, it's hard to imagine seeing a running back's career trajectory ever end up like his again. 

I'm not at all stating the Barkley decision should have been influenced by Tiki's career, just pointing out how extraordinary his career was and its relationship to Coughlin.  Maybe I am stating we need to raise the bar a bit on expectations around how current coaches can get more ability out of players.   

What went wrong with Will Hernandez's time with the NYG?

Since it hasn't been 10 years yet, i'll again flag the offseason they didn't sign Whitworth and also drafted Engram instead of Ramczyk in the 2017 draft. I think Eli had a window there with OBJ that either of those players at LT would have made a world of difference. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 22, 2024, 02:21:04 PMSaying that part of the reason Lamar earned his 2 MVPs was his rushing is not minimizing what he did with his arm.  Without the rushing component, it's highly doubtful Lamar would have received either MVP award

I think Jones at his best was with a play style similar to Lamar.  It's ironic that Waller pointed out DJ's potential because I think his signing represented the Giants seeing Jones as a different type of quarterback (Ceri flagged this early last season).  I would have rather the Giants had used that 3rd round pick to reinforce their strength of the 2022 season which was the running game and DL.  Dex and Barkley's snap count won them their playoff game but wore them out against Eagles and probably borrowed against their 2023 potential.  Bellinger was a true blend of a run blocker and reliable pass catcher until the eye injury, and he complemented the DJ/Barkley combo.  It wouldn't have costed much cap space to invest in a similar type of TE better and RB depth.  They won in 2022 by keeping games close with a run game, defense, and the occasional big play.       

I'm not sure after the hits Jones took last season and after the neck and ACL injuries he can run a 2022 style offense without Barkley.  Maybe with Nabers lined up he can keep pressure off the back field and Giants can get back to ball control offense since their defense can be special next season.  Individual stats don't look great in that type of system but with the current team configuration, it's the closest style of play that will get them back to winning.