Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 20, 2022, 08:51:15 PMRegardless of whether you think so or not, Brissett, Tyrod, Mayfield etc are right with Jones. Jones has managed some games well but only about 60% this season. we're not winning Because of him, we could bring In any of Mayfield, Brisset, Jimmy G, or a rookie to replicate 160-190 yards a game. I don't think Jones is horrible but he's not the longterm answer, so why retain him and pay significant capital when at least 8-10 backups can come in and give you the same yardage and Tds. We know what Jones is at this point he's 2900 yards 12-15 passing Tds and a few Ints, we don't need to pay 25 or 30 a year for that when we can use tyrod, or one of those cheap veterans to replicate the production until we find our guy. Every team that has kept their average to above avg Qb has within a year or two drafted the person to replace him because it was a mistake. Tannehill, Goff, and Jinmy G all signed and shortly there after drafted their replacements because it wasn't a good longterm move. I'd argue those 3 Qbs are better than Jones.

I don't know how you can make that claim like it's a fact (the part in bold).  I mean why not claim Darnold is right up there with Mahomes?   

In my opinion, comparing QBs is not as easy as people believe it to be.  Too much of their performance is impacted by their protection, receiving targets/playmakers, and coaching/scheme.

A perfect example is the Patriot's, Mac Jones.   

As a rookie, he put up a 92.5 QB rating and a 56.9 QBR

Then he gets Daniel Jones' old head coach (for the past 2 seasons)

His numbers drop to 82.6 QB rating and 30.7 QBR

Do you think Mac Jones forgot how to play QB?

Brian Daboll goes in-depth on Daniel Jones.  This goes well beyond typical coach speak


Q: Where are you on (quarterback) Daniel (Jones) and the steps he's taken under your staff's tutelage this season?

A: Well, give Daniel credit, first and foremost. He's an extremely hard worker. I think he understands what we're trying to accomplish each week. Every week, it's a little bit different. But he works extremely hard. He studies. He understands the teams that we're playing, and he makes good decisions for what we ask him to do. Last week was a little bit different than the week before. He's taking care of the football. He's done a good job.

Q: In your experience, how difficult is it for a quarterback who has either a fumbling, an interception issue or a turnover issue to correct that because it seems like, generally speaking, he's done that.

A: Give credit to him. He's got to take care of the ball in the pocket, and he's got to be the one to make good decisions when he's under pressure. I think (quarterbacks coach) Shea (Tierney) has done a really great job with him in the quarterback room. We try to do things that accentuate his strengths. I think he can throw it on all three levels, but there's a way to play each game against each opponent based on what they have defensively, how their rush is, what their corners look like. He's done a good job of operating and executing our offense.

Q: You come from a place where you've experienced a quarterback being a really popular guy in the locker room. It certainly seems like Daniel (Jones) has won over teammates and is highly respected. How much does that matter?

A: I think when I got here, just talking to some of the skill guys and even the defensive guys, they've always had that respect for Daniel because of the way he approaches his job, he's a true pro. And he's a good leader. I know he's kind of a quiet guy. But in the huddle, he's a good leader with those guys. He knows everybody's responsibilities. He can get things lined up; he can correct mistakes. He's a problem solver. So, I think the guys have a lot of respect for him.

Q: The turnover thing, obviously, was a thing early in his career. What do you make of him having – he's thrown four interceptions, the fewest of any quarterback in the NFL this year that's played most of their team's games. What do you make of that?

A: That's good.

Q: What do you attribute it to? Why do you think there's been such a drastic shift there?

A: Well, again, like I was saying: I think he works at it. I think Shea has done a great job. We have certain reads and things in our offense that we teach. And he just goes out and executes well. So, he's done everything that we've asked him to do in terms of the things that we need to do each game. Again, it's never going to be perfect. It's a hard position to play. I think he's got some confidence. We have confidence in him. We just put together a game plan that we think will work well for us as a team but (also will) work well for him, too, as a quarterback.

Q: Do you think there's more upside to him? A lot of times when somebody's that far along in their career, they'll say, 'oh, that's their ceiling".

A: Well, I don't think he's that far along in his career as a quarterback. Again, it's a tough position to play. I can just go by the guys that I've had the last few years. One, I was with him for four years and each year we took a little bit of a step, and you always give credit to the players. His ability to grasp information and then go out there and perform it with what we're asking him to do, I'm not sure the other years he's been here, I think he's made steps each way. Certainly, things to improve on but conscientious, hardworking, tough, competitor. Those are good qualities to have at that position.

Q: The flip side is you've had the fewest 20+ yard pass plays. How much of that do you view as situational, personnel, what do you attribute that to?

A: We always have a gameplan each week. Go into a game of how we want to play it and his job is to make the right decisions. So, if it's to throw a quick game or take an underneath route, he's done a good job of putting the ball where we want him to put it. We certainly would like more explosive plays, that helps you score more points, but he's doing what we ask him to do.

Q: A lot of times guys on the outside have these fiery dispositions. Daniel is not that guy.

A: Oh, I thought you were talking about me (laughs).

Q: Well that we all know, but Daniel's not that way. Does that not tell the whole story about Daniel?

A: Yeah, he's a competitor and I think that's why his teammates respect him so much. I think he's just very levelheaded and that helps too when sometimes there's chaos in the game; whether that's in the pocket, whether you're down. I think he's really been the model of consistency with his attitude and his approach and that's what I appreciate about him.

Quote from: todge on December 20, 2022, 09:59:12 PMWith the increase in the salary cap - we are looking at a $30M per year QB salary. Perhaps DJ will take less money so the Giants can fit others into the Cap. Let's hope Abrams can weave his magic.


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That depends if Abrams is retained in his position after being shifted out of the role he had in 2021.  Schoen and Brown may want to bring in someone else to manage the cap.

Quote from: todge on December 20, 2022, 10:03:06 PMWell put. I am also reluctant to try the Draft to get your QB. Look no further than the Jets who tried to bench the 2nd pick in the Draft. Schoen knows full well that putting your eggs in the Draft for your QB is a major gamble.


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He does.  He came from an organization that traded up to draft their QB in 2018 which has worked out pretty well for that team.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 21, 2022, 09:02:59 AMVery true the draft is how the Giants ended up with their current QB

This is true, and Jones may very well be the best of the bunch that year.

1   1   Arizona Cardinals   Kyler Murray †   QB   Oklahoma   
1   6   New York Giants   Daniel Jones    QB   Duke   ACC   
1   15   Washington Redskins   Dwayne Haskins    QB   Ohio State   
2   42   Denver Broncos   Drew Lock    QB   Missouri   SEC   
3*   100   Carolina Panthers   Will Grier    QB   West Virginia   

   

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 21, 2022, 09:09:54 AMThis is true, and Jones may very well be the best of the bunch that year.

1   1   Arizona Cardinals   Kyler Murray †   QB   Oklahoma   
1   6   New York Giants   Daniel Jones    QB   Duke   ACC   
1   15   Washington Redskins   Dwayne Haskins    QB   Ohio State   
2   42   Denver Broncos   Drew Lock    QB   Missouri   SEC   
3*   100   Carolina Panthers   Will Grier    QB   West Virginia   

   

Just goes to show the best in each draft doesn't = success!

We can do worse! 

Is this upcoming draft comparable better or worse than the draft above??

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 21, 2022, 10:13:44 AMJust goes to show the best in each draft doesn't = success!

We can do worse! 

Is this upcoming draft comparable better or worse than the draft above??

The 2017 draft was thought to be a weak draft for QB's yet Mahomes went 10th and Watson went 12th.  You never know and there isn't an exact science to it.  You would just have to hope that if this Giants regime does go QB in the 1st round of the 2023 draft that they end up with the right guy.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 21, 2022, 10:17:23 AMThe 2017 draft was thought to be a weak draft for QB's yet Mahomes went 10th and Watson went 12th.  You never know and there isn't an exact science to it.  You would just have to hope that if this Giants regime does go QB in the 1st round of the 2023 draft that they end up with the right guy.

Exactly!  A lot more luck I think goes into this sometimes than anything else.

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 21, 2022, 10:29:54 AMExactly!  A lot more luck I think goes into this sometimes than anything else.

It's really not luck. They have to have an eye for QB evaluation and they have to do their due diligence. Take the highly touted draft of Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Allen and Jackson. It was very clear what was there. Mayfield short with character/maturity issues. Rosen work ethic/leadership issues. Darnold wildly erratic with poor decision making, Allen cannon arm, mobile but poor mechanics on a bad team. Jackson, weak arm but extremely mobile and a fit for the right offense.

I was never a fan of Murray and the entire draft class looked weak. Still Jones was the at or near the top of that class and it was evident in that last bowl game. Quite frankly if he was in most other teams he wouldn't have gotten this far. Most QB never get nurtured and properly developed and teams give up on them. Mara was in love with this kid. He was the next Eli Manning. Looked the part and played the part.

Sometimes a QB has strong character strengths and is resilient like Geno Smith who was dealt a xxxx hand. It was obvious to me the game he came in for Eli that this kid had game. Wrong place, wrong time and wrong organization (and I'll leave it at that).

I have to say that I'm not sold on Jones as a long term solution but I am very impressed with how he has worked through his challenges and weaknesses and this team can do a hell of a lot worse. He still has processing issues and the alarm factor comes in on pressure and his peripheral vision may be a liability but this kid has resilience and a strong desire to succeed. And I wouldn't bet against that, especially with an organization who completely and wholeheartedly supports him. A man like that has a higher ceiling than I or anyone else gives him credit for.

https://twitter.com/TalkinGiants/status/1605618326868152320

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 21, 2022, 08:00:51 AMI don't know how you can make that claim like it's a fact (the part in bold).  I mean why not claim Darnold is right up there with Mahomes?   

In my opinion, comparing QBs is not as easy as people believe it to be.  Too much of their performance is impacted by their protection, receiving targets/playmakers, and coaching/scheme.

A perfect example is the Patriot's, Mac Jones.   

As a rookie, he put up a 92.5 QB rating and a 56.9 QBR

Then he gets Daniel Jones' old head coach (for the past 2 seasons)

His numbers drop to 82.6 QB rating and 30.7 QBR

Do you think Mac Jones forgot how to play QB?

So statically when they've started Brissett, Mayfield, and Tyrod haven't put up comparable numbers to Jones yes or no? They have so I'm not sure why you're questioning it. Mayfield put up a baseline stats before they got him help like OBJ etc, Tyrod played with a roster similar to the Giants in Buffalo and put up similar numbers. Brisset despite playing less games has 2,608 yards 12TD 6int and an 88.9 rating to Jones' 2,694 yards 12 tds 4 Int 90.5 rating. Jones has played 3 more games. So you're telling me honestly that with daboll/Kafka and the offense as currently constructed you don't think those 3 could average 180 yards and 1 Td a game?

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 21, 2022, 01:25:12 PMSo statically when they've started Brissett, Mayfield, and Tyrod haven't put up comparable numbers to Jones yes or no? They have so I'm not sure why you're questioning it. Mayfield put up a baseline stats before they got him help like OBJ etc, Tyrod played with a roster similar to the Giants in Buffalo and put up similar numbers. Brisset despite playing less games has 2,608 yards 12TD 6int and an 88.9 rating to Jones' 2,694 yards 12 tds 4 Int 90.5 rating. Jones has played 3 more games. So you're telling me honestly that with daboll/Kafka and the offense as currently constructed you don't think those 3 could average 180 yards and 1 Td a game?

Jess,

I think you are asking the wrong question, in my opinion.  Your question assumes there is no improvement in the QB supporting case from year 1 to year 2.  I think we can expect a significant improvement and with that improvement, we will see increases in the raw numbers.   With the improvement and the increased raw stats, I don't see the two QBs you mention creating the same increase in stats next season.   Neither of the QBs you mentioned is as talented (in this season and next0 as Daniel Jones has demonstrated. 

So the QBs you mentioned could likely average 180 yards and 1 Td a game but I think we all want and expect more than that next season.

Also while a really poor supporting cast can stymie many QBs so there are similar, don't forget what happened last year when DJ was hurt and they had to play other QBs, the drop off was dramatic

Once again - the failure to acknowledge supporting casts and DJ's rushing numbers is not being transparent about whats going on with the QB position.

Quote from: AP44 on December 21, 2022, 01:37:31 PMOnce again - the failure to acknowledge supporting casts and DJ's rushing numbers is not being transparent about whats going on with the QB position.

I had forgotten the rushing yardage, those yards are huge (and often resulted in critical first downs)

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 21, 2022, 07:15:20 AMHe wasn't trying to pick a fight.  You made some claims and he asked you what did you observe to draw those conclusions.   

Many of us have shared plenty of data, stats, observations and sources, etc to back up and/or articulate why we feel the way we do about various parts of the team.

The issue is if it is not what you believe, you just say we are wrong

In the case of others, they just get combative and try to pick fights

You can ask for our observations all you, AP, or whoever else wants, you know darn well it won't mean a thing to you

Then how would you like a discussion to go? I asked you a very simple question and you were the one who got combative and made unsubstantial claims towards me. If you dont want to discuss a topic and answer questions about your opinion, thats fine. Just let us know.