Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 04:58:41 PMI know we're not creating more Daniel Jones threads (which I am fully supportive of), so I'll ask this question here:


Very simply, where do you most closely fit in to these three categories regarding Daniel Jones' future on the Giants?


A. I want Jones back, period. I am in favor of paying whatever it takes to keep him here, and I want him to be here long term. I view him as a franchise QB. He is the guy.

B. I would be happy to have Jones back, but only up to a certain price, and I only want to be committed for a relatively small number of years.

C. I don't want Jones back next year, period. It's time to move in another direction.

I expect many who respond to classify themselves in the "B" group. If so, can you please clearly indicate what your absolute limit would be, both in terms of AAV and in terms of total years of the contract?

I think we have a lot of back and forth on Jones and a lot of arguing. There is a lot of noise. With Jones' fourth year just about over (as far as the regular season), how about folks put down on paper where they actually stand in terms of what THEY want regarding his future? And not just trying to predict what actually WILL happen. What would you actually like to see happen?

Thanks.

Im content riding with one of the several FA Qbs for cheap or Tyrod for a couple of seasons until we find our guy. I'll go B, with a 1 year 8 million dollar deal with a team option for a 2nd year at 9 million. So technically 2 year 17 million with an opt out for the Giants after this coming season. The 2 year 17 is in line with his production and what other Qbs with his production have made in the open market. With up to 12 teams needing Qbs it could inflate Jones price, inwhich case I'm comfortable with him walking and taking a Brisset, Tyrod, Minshew, or Mayfield for a year until we get our guy.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 05:12:29 PMOk, if you're agnostic on the money side of things, I get that.

How about this: Do you want him back, or not?

I've said it before in other posts I'm completely at a loss on this topic.

I saw the player he could be his rookie year.  The player I'm seeing today is different.  The player he was the middle two years wasn't impressed but I give a pass due to what he was working with.

I don't know how to fairly evaluate him.

I can't believe the player from year 1 (minus the turnovers) is gone into this dink and dunk uninspiring offense.

He has an arm, he is accurate long!  It makes no sense!!!

Idk if it's just the WRs or him.  Is it a plan Dabs has for him? Idk idk idk!  It drives me nuts!

I read these forums and I can see each fans side of it and relate and understand where both sides are coming from.

I HATE BEING Sweden here as you all know I'm not a middle of the road kinda guy! Lol but this is one I'm completely lost on so I'm putting more trust then I care to in JS to do the right thing for the Giants and I'll be ok with it, for now lol!

Great idea, Dave!

Considering the Giants 2023 relative draft position, I think it's wise to bring him back via franchise or transition tag. I like jess' idea; however, I don't believe DJ will accept that contract offer, nor should he. He's worth more than 1 yr/$8 million deal.  If you consider he's a mid-tier quarterback, he's worth at least 25 million a year.  I am not in favor of a long-term, 100+ million dollar deal.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 03:23:41 PMAnd quite frankly no one cares, it is all BS!!!!!!! You do not know any better than we do. Regardless of what we think or don't think, regardless of what we agree on or disagree on. WE. ALL. KNOW. NOTHING.

It is either 0% or 100%, only Joe and Dabs know which it is, and we will find out soon enough.

Why are you objecting to Blue Fire's opinion? 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 04:58:41 PMI know we're not creating more Daniel Jones threads (which I am fully supportive of), so I'll ask this question here:


Very simply, where do you most closely fit in to these three categories regarding Daniel Jones' future on the Giants?


A. I want Jones back, period. I am in favor of paying whatever it takes to keep him here, and I want him to be here long term. I view him as a franchise QB. He is the guy.

B. I would be happy to have Jones back, but only up to a certain price, and I only want to be committed for a relatively small number of years.

C. I don't want Jones back next year, period. It's time to move in another direction.

I expect many who respond to classify themselves in the "B" group. If so, can you please clearly indicate what your absolute limit would be, both in terms of AAV and in terms of total years of the contract?

I think we have a lot of back and forth on Jones and a lot of arguing. There is a lot of noise. With Jones' fourth year just about over (as far as the regular season), how about folks put down on paper where they actually stand in terms of what THEY want regarding his future? And not just trying to predict what actually WILL happen. What would you actually like to see happen?

Thanks.

I am not sure this is the best framing.   Either Joe and Dabs believe DJ is the future so you pay what you have to.  They think he is the answer, at least short term, so you offer what you think he is worth, or the don't want him and let him walk.

To me, it makes little sense to view this strickly as a salary issue.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 05:28:20 PMI am not sure this is the best framing.   Either Joe and Dabs believe DJ is the future so you pay what you have to.  They think he is the answer, at least short term, so you offer what you think he is worth, or the don't want him and let him walk.

To me, it makes little sense to view this strickly as a salary issue.

This notion only makes sense if you choose to look at it in a vacuum. The Giants may wish to go another direction; yet, the relative draft position may not afford them the opportunity to do so. We saw this for multiple years with Washington and cousins.  We'll know if this is accurate if the Giants only offer a minimum contract, or use the franchise or transition tag. If they think he's the answer, they'll offer the multiyear/big money contract. 

Besides, this isn't what Dave is asking. Dave is asking what do YOU want.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 05:35:30 PMThis notion only makes sense if you choose to look at it in a vacuum. The Giants may wish to go another direction; yet, the relative draft position may not afford them the opportunity to do so. We saw this for multiple years with Washington and cousins.  We'll know if this is accurate if the Giants only offer a minimum contract, or use the franchise or transition tag. If they think he's the answer, they'll offer the multiyear/big money contract. 

Besides, this isn't what Dave is asking. Dave is asking what do YOU want.

Actually, Matt, it's quite the reverse.  You guys are looking at Jones in a vacuum.   Schoen, if he is a good GM is looking at the QB position as just one piece in the team-building puzzle.   As for what I want, I am not so unrealistic to think I know more about Jones than the people who are directly coaching him.  Frankly, the only scenario that I would find disappointing is if Schoen wanted Jones back at a given price, but another team signed him away for more money.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 05:58:02 PMActually, Matt, it's quite the reverse.  You guys are looking at Jones in a vacuum.   Schoen, if he is a good GM is looking at the QB position as just one piece in the team-building puzzle.   As for what I want, I am not so unrealistic to think I know more about Jones than the people who are directly coaching him.  Frankly, the only scenario that I would find disappointing is if Schoen wanted Jones back at a given price, but another team signed him away for more money.

.

None of this has anything to do with expressing what you would like to see happen. I have already expressed my opinion, I would like to see DJ back on a one or two year deal.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 06:01:17 PM.

None of this has anything to do with expressing what you would like to see happen. I have already expressed my opinion, I would like to see DJ back on a one or two year deal.

You are correct, which is why I don't think this issue should be framed as how much to pay

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 05:22:56 PMWhy are you objecting to Blue Fire's opinion?

How am I objecting? If you actually read before jumping at people's throats, you would see I'm not claiming one side is wrong, but simply no one from either side, including myself know a thing. We can all throw around whatever random numbers and statistics out of our asses that we want, fact is none of us know nothing, and none of us will know anything until the powers that be make the decisions on this teams personel. 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 03:00:52 PMPersonally, I find it astonishing, outrageous even, that a group of people who have zero NFL experience, either as a coach, executive, scout, or player, and (barring perhaps one or two exceptions) have never played serious college football even, think they are more knowledgeable about this sport or a specific player than a Hall of Fame TE who won three Super Bowls, was a first team all pro four times, and spent a number of years practicing and playing with one of the ten greatest QBs ever to play this game (John Elway).

For some random dude sitting at home or at work in front of his computer who has never sniffed an NFL paycheck to refer to Shannon Sharpe as a "shock-jock", and for others here to deny that he's an expert on this sport (or imply as much), simply because what he had to say doesn't happen to suit their agendas, shows how far some are willing to go to defend their views and besmirch others whom they have absolutely no business doing that to and look ridiculous while doing it.

It is especially hard to fathom considering a lot of these same people post random tweets and articles written by some random nobody with zero professional football credentials just because the content is attempting to pump a certain player up that they want to see pumped up.

Pretty wild and crazy stuff if you ask me. But hey, the truth is that nothing really surprises me that much anymore these days.

Maybe it's that lots of other professionals have given an opposite argument and included analysis while the guy in question makes his money by providing controversial opinions and just threw out a clickbait tweet without anything behind it.  I have a much higher regard for his brother Sterling, who used to do that show with Baldinger analyzing upcoming match-ups.  I don't see a lot of Shannon, but I can't recall ever seeing him doing any serious analysis.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 06:05:10 PMYou are correct, which is why I don't think this issue should be framed as how much to pay

I'm seriously interested in why you're deflecting?  Why are you avoiding the Question?  I also completely disagree the aggregate salary doesn't matter in a league with a hard salary cap. I promise you the Giants analytics department will provide a number relative to DJs projected production. In the NFL, salary absolutely matters and should be part of this discussion.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 06:29:10 PMHow am I objecting? If you actually read before jumping at people's throats, you would see I'm not claiming one side is wrong, but simply no one from either side, including myself know a thing. We can all throw around whatever random numbers and statistics out of our asses that we want, fact is none of us know nothing, and none of us will know anything until the powers that be make the decisions on this teams personel. 

Calling BF's opinions "BS" and claiming "no one cares" about his opinions seems like a reasonable interpretation of an objection, I would think.  It's also inaccurate as I for one care to hear what his opinions are.

I am curious, though, how is asking "why are you objecting to BF's opinion, "jumping down someone's throat."  Maybe it's me but that sort of hyperbole makes me think you are trying to paint yourself as some sort of victim.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 06:36:47 PMMaybe it's that lots of other professionals have given an opposite argument and included analysis while the guy in question makes his money by providing controversial opinions and just threw out a clickbait tweet without anything behind it.  I have a much higher regard for his brother Sterling, who used to do that show with Baldinger analyzing upcoming match-ups.  I don't see a lot of Shannon, but I can't recall ever seeing him doing any serious analysis.

That's true for everyone whose revenue and/or contacts is predicated by viewership.  It's all about content, regardless of the accuracy of said content. I'd recommend posters do their own critical thinking and analysis, vice consuming multiple podcasts.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 06:38:58 PMI'm seriously interested in why you're deflecting?  Why are you avoiding the Question?  I also completely disagree the aggregate salary doesn't matter in a league with a hard salary cap. I promise you the Giants analytics department will provide a number relative to DJs projected production. In the NFL, salary absolutely matters and should be part of this discussion.

Your commentary makes it sound like you are not familiar with the concept of framing.  DB's question served to frame the issue in a way he (and clearly you) wanted to frame it.  Not accepting the framing isn't "deflecting.", as the wrong framing can often cloud an issue or skew an issue.

As for your promise, I highly doubt they will set his cap number based on his production, no matter how much you wish that to be the case.

Also, the claim about salary cap mattering is a bit of a strawman as I never suggested salary cap wouldn't matter.  Although how much it matters will depend on what Schoen and Daboll consider DJ's future potential to be.