Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 06:46:20 PMYour commentary makes it sound like you are not familiar with the concept of framing.  DB's question served to frame the issue in a way he (and clearly you) wanted to frame it.  Not accepting the framing isn't "deflecting.", as the wrong framing can often cloud an issue or skew an issue.

As for your promise, I highly doubt they will set his cap number based on his production, no matter how much you wish that to be the case.

Also, the claim about salary cap mattering is a bit of a strawman as I never suggested salary cap wouldn't matter.  Although how much it matters will depend on what Schoen and Daboll consider DJ's future potential to be.

Rich, I can't ask it anymore plainly: what do you want the Giants to do with DJ?  There's no framing or alternative motive. It's a simple question.

So, the Giants million-dollar analytics department doesn't have any culpability in the Giants biggest decision in the last five years? They're not going to provide the Giants decision making any relevant data, projections, or or relative value information? If you believe that, you clearly have never been exposed to Analytics. The analytics department will give the Giants decision makers a number however, it will be up to the Giants decide to go beyond that or not.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 07:03:32 PMRich, I can't ask it anymore plainly: what do you want the Giants to do with DJ?  There's no framing or alternative motive. It's a simple question.

So, the Giants million-dollar analytics department doesn't have any culpability in the Giants biggest decision in the last five years? They're not going to provide the Giants decision making any relevant data, projections, or or relative value information? If you believe that, you clearly have never been exposed to Analytics. The analytics department will give the Giants decision makers a number however, it will be up to the Giants decide to go beyond that or not.

Matt,

I have already explained what I want (and would expect) the Giants to do with DJ is based entirely on what Daboll and Schoen believe DJ's potential is and what they expect from him moving forward.   In my opinion, it's sort of pointless to talk about dollars without knowing that.   You guys are certainly free to speculate, though.

To clarify, the analytics department may play a role, but it's highly unlikely they will be doing what you suggested, which is to set a dollar value based on past production.  The analytics department will more likely set dollar values for various levels of anticipated performance which Joe would use as guidelines in any negotiations. 

Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 06:42:58 PMThat's true for everyone whose revenue and/or contacts is predicated by viewership.  It's all about content, regardless of the accuracy of said content. I'd recommend posters do their own critical thinking and analysis, vice consuming multiple podcasts.

Hence why I don't post these kinds of things myself.  But there are a lot of guys who provide meat to get eyeballs, not just pure clickbait that is devoid of content beyond just a throwaway  opinion.  Like the guy who does the detailed film breakdowns under 'Talking Giants', Bobby Skinner, or the guy who did the Thib's breakdown over the last 3 games that I posted - I don't even know the name or credentials of the guy who runs 'The Football Scout' but I know his breakdown deepened my understanding.  I'd love to see him do a similar video on this last, monster, game Thibs had.  Or the guy who does the QB School website who did a nice breakdown after the London game.  Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj_YlNSwUME&t=9s

For me, things like this provide actual value.

And considering that my position on Jones is pretty unique on this board, I think it's clear that I don't follow any of these guys as gurus, I do my own thinking.  You may not agree with my thinking, but it is my own.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 07:08:34 PMMatt,

I have already explained what I want (and would expect) the Giants to do with DJ is based entirely on what Daboll and Schoen believe DJ's potential is and what they expect from him moving forward.  In my opinion, it's sort of pointless to talk about dollars without knowing that.  You guys are certainly free to speculate, though.

To clarify, the analytics department may play a role, but it's highly unlikely they will be doing what you suggested, which is to set a dollar value based on past production.  The analytics department will more likely set dollar values for various levels of anticipated performance which Joe would use as guidelines in any negotiations. 

That's exactly what analytics does; it will provide a value relative to DJs predictive performance going forward. The number will be computed based on sophisticated algorithms that use literal thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of data points...maybe more. It will be up to the Giants brass do use this data or not; however, I assure you, the Giants analytics department will play a significant role in the decision to retain DJ, and recommend a relative value.  It's literally what they do. 

Also, would you mind providing a link to your thoughts on what the giant should do with DJ. I must have missed it would enjoy reading your musings.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 07:24:19 PMHence why I don't post these kinds of things myself.  But there are a lot of guys who provide meat to get eyeballs, not just pure clickbait that is devoid of content beyond just a throwaway  opinion.  Like the guy who does the detailed film breakdowns under 'Talking Giants' or the guy who did the Thib's breakdown over the last 3 games that I posted - I don't even know the name or credentials ofthe guy who runs 'The football scout's but I know his breakdown deepened my understanding.  I'd love to see him do a similar video on this last, monster, game Thibs had.  Or the guy who does the QB School website who did a nice breakdown after the London game.  Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj_YlNSwUME&t=9s

For me, things like this provide actual value.

And considering that my position on Jones is pretty unique on this board, I think it's clear that I don't follow any of these guys as gurus, I do my own thinking.  You may not agree with my thinking, but it is my own.

Sounds like where in violent agreement, Rich.

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 05:18:21 PMI've said it before in other posts I'm completely at a loss on this topic.

I saw the player he could be his rookie year.  The player I'm seeing today is different.  The player he was the middle two years wasn't impressed but I give a pass due to what he was working with.

I don't know how to fairly evaluate him.

I can't believe the player from year 1 (minus the turnovers) is gone into this dink and dunk uninspiring offense.

He has an arm, he is accurate long!  It makes no sense!!!

Idk if it's just the WRs or him.  Is it a plan Dabs has for him? Idk idk idk!  It drives me nuts!

I read these forums and I can see each fans side of it and relate and understand where both sides are coming from.

I HATE BEING Sweden here as you all know I'm not a middle of the road kinda guy! Lol but this is one I'm completely lost on so I'm putting more trust then I care to in JS to do the right thing for the Giants and I'll be ok with it, for now lol!

Totally fair answer. You're being honest about how you feel. I could never ask for more than that.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 07:25:28 PMThat's exactly what analytics does; it will provide a value relative to DJs predictive performance going forward. The number will be computed based on sophisticated algorithms that use literal thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of data points...maybe more. It will be up to the Giants brass do use this data or not; however, I assure you, the Giants analytics department play a significant role in your decision to retain DJ and at what about value... It's literally what they do.

Also, would you mind providing link to your thoughts on what the giant should do with DJ. I must have missed it would enjoy reading your musings.

I'll save you the click


Either Joe and Dabs believe DJ is the future so you pay what you have to.  They think he is the answer, at least short term, so you offer what you think he is worth, or the don't want him and let him walk.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 05:28:20 PMI am not sure this is the best framing.  Either Joe and Dabs believe DJ is the future so you pay what you have to.  They think he is the answer, at least short term, so you offer what you think he is worth, or the don't want him and let him walk.

To me, it makes little sense to view this strickly as a salary issue.

I don't agree with this post. We have heard Schoen repeatedly talk about value. We heard him specifically say that he might be interested in someone like Jeudy in a trade, but only up to a certain price limit. If he can get it done within that limit, then great. If not, then he has no problem walking away. He has also said they're constantly evaluating their own players.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, you seem to be saying that they first make a binary decision as to whether they want a player (such as Jones) or not, and that money has nothing to do with that part of the decision, and then if they decide yes, they pay whatever they need to pay to get it done.

Based on what I have heard Schoen say himself in interviews when he talks about how he thinks about players from a value point of view, I don't believe he approaches things this way. I think there are limits to what he is willing to pay for players, or what he is willing to accept for players in trades, or how high he is willing to draft players, etc. I don't think it's just a yes or no question with him, and then pay whatever it takes if the answer is yes. I think he is a GM for whom value and price are always part of the discussion.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 06:46:20 PMYour commentary makes it sound like you are not familiar with the concept of framing.  DB's question served to frame the issue in a way he (and clearly you) wanted to frame it.  Not accepting the framing isn't "deflecting.", as the wrong framing can often cloud an issue or skew an issue.

As for your promise, I highly doubt they will set his cap number based on his production, no matter how much you wish that to be the case.

Also, the claim about salary cap mattering is a bit of a strawman as I never suggested salary cap wouldn't matter.  Although how much it matters will depend on what Schoen and Daboll consider DJ's future potential to be.

MG,

If you personally don't want money to be part of the discussion that you involve yourself in, that is obviously fine. Two of the three options I provided actually have nothing to do with money. One can simply say "I want him back no matter what" or "I don't want him back under any circumstances." Neither of those has anything to do with salary. Salary is only an issue in this exercise if you choose to make it so by picking the only one out of the three options where it comes into play. So I'm not sure why you're so hung up on it.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 07:32:35 PMI don't agree with this post. We have heard Schoen repeatedly talk about value. We heard him specifically say that he might be interested in someone like Jeudy in a trade, but only up to a certain price limit. If he can get it done within that limit, then great. If not, then he has no problem walking away. He has also said they're constantly evaluating their own players.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, you seem to be saying that they first make a binary decision as to whether they want a player (such as Jones) or not, and that money has nothing to do with that part of the decision, and then if they decide yes, they pay whatever they need to pay to get it done.

Based on what I have heard Schoen say himself in interviews when he talks about how he thinks about players from a value point of view, I don't believe he approaches things this way. I think there are limits to what he is willing to pay for players, or what he is willing to accept for players in trades, or how high he is willing to draft players, etc. I don't think it's just a yes or no question with him, and then pay whatever it takes if the answer is yes. I think he is a GM for whom value and price are always part of the discussion.

I am not sure how you got binary from three options.  Might be my fault, as things were broken up with some rather poor punctuation.

option 1-  They think he is their franchise QB.  If that's the case you pay him what you pay franchise QBs not much the team can do, you don't let franchise QB leave (especially at age 25)

option 2-  You think he might be a franchise QB or perhaps just good enough to be a bridge until someone better comes along.  In this case, Schoen will set a value and likely stick with it, even at the risk of losing him

option 3-  You don't think Jones is the answer and you simply let him walk.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 07:38:57 PMI am not sure how you got binary from three options.  Might be my fault, as things were broken up with some rather poor punctuation.

option 1-  They think he is their franchise QB.  If that's the case you pay him what you pay franchise QBs not much the team can do, you don't let franchise QB leave (especially at age 25)

option 2-  You think he might be a franchise QB or perhaps just good enough to be a bridge until someone better comes along.  In this case, Schoen will set a value and likely stick with it, even at the risk of losing him

option 3-  You don't think Jones is the answer and you simply let him walk.

Ok, I agree that these are the three possibilities from Schoen/Daboll's perspective. I'm on the same page with that.

What I'm asking though is what members here would actually like to see happen themselves, based on all their observations of Daniel Jones throughout his four years here. Not what they think the conundrum is for our front office/coaching staff. I am trying to get a sense of what fans here actually want themselves.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 07:42:44 PMOk, I agree that these are the three possibilities from Schoen/Daboll's perspective. I'm on the same page with that.

What I'm asking though is what members here would actually like to see happen themselves, based on all their observations of Daniel Jones throughout his four years here. Not what they think the conundrum is for our front office/coaching staff. I am trying to get a sense of what fans here actually want themselves.

DB,

Two huge variables are missing to hazard any meaningful guess.  First, because of the issues surrounding Jones regarding talent deficits, the only ones who really can properly evaluate Jones are Daboll and Schoen.   Second, as has been mentioned previously, there is no middle-class salary tier in the NFL.   There are franchise QBs, QBs on rookie deals, and not good enough/backups. 

So you are asking to establish what DJ is worth (which I can't really say) and establish a new middle-class salary tier.  I am certainly not going to begrudge you your speculation, but for me, there isn't enough information to hazard a quality guess.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 07:51:59 PMDB,

Two huge variables are missing to hazard any meaningful guess.  First, because of the issues surrounding Jones regarding talent deficits, the only ones who really can properly evaluate Jones are Daboll and Schoen.   Second, as has been mentioned previously, there is no middle-class salary tier in the NFL.   There are franchise QBs, QBs on rookie deals, and not good enough/backups. 

So you are asking to establish what DJ is worth (which I can't really say) and establish a new middle-class salary tier.  I am certainly not going to begrudge you your speculation, but for me, there isn't enough information to hazard a quality guess.

MG,

Why is it a "guess" to simply state whether you want him back or not?

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 07:51:59 PMDB,

Two huge variables are missing to hazard any meaningful guess.  First, because of the issues surrounding Jones regarding talent deficits, the only ones who really can properly evaluate Jones are Daboll and Schoen.  Second, as has been mentioned previously, there is no middle-class salary tier in the NFL.  There are franchise QBs, QBs on rookie deals, and not good enough/backups. 

So you are asking to establish what DJ is worth (which I can't really say) and establish a new middle-class salary tier.  I am certainly not going to begrudge you your speculation, but for me, there isn't enough information to hazard a quality guess.

Rich,

The question has nothing to do with having the available information to glean what the Giants might do. It's actually quite simple. What would you, as a Giants fan, want to happen. We're not front office personnel; so, we can speculate without having the necessary information as there's no repercussions.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 07:53:27 PMMG,

Why is it a "guess" to simply state whether you want him back or not?

If you want to know if I want him back or not, I can answer that.  I want him back, BUT only if that is what Daboll and Schoen want.  It's the quickest path to becoming a contender.  On the other hand, if Daboll and Schoen don't want him back or want him back only at the right price, that's what I want (in those scenarios).

We all see that the Giants are running a rather unique (or perhaps limited is a better term) offense, and production is not where we want it to be.  How much of that is due to poor blocking, a lack of receiving targets, or any limitations that Dabs and Kafka feel Daniel Jones has, is something none of us really know (if we are being completely honest with ourselves).  Without knowing that, I don't see how we could want or not want him back