Big Blue Huddle

OL need to block and WRs need to get open.  QB needs to read D and hit open man.  It is not his job to block or throw to a WR not open.

I am ready to move on from DJ due to injuries and his unwillingness to take chances but let's remember what each player's role is and stop assigning positional responsibility to other positions.

Quote from: kingm56 on April 20, 2024, 04:31:39 AMYes he would! He would be the same Patrick during SB against TB, when he was hitting WR/TE 30 yards downfield from a horizontal position, playing behind an atrocious oline.  Was there any doubt he was the best player on the field that evening?  You simply can't hide that type of talent! The same was true for Joe Burrow, playing behind an Oline that allowed an NFL high 19-sacks during their playoff run. You can throw-in Herberts record-breaking rookie season behind the NFL #32 ranked oline.  I could go on-and-on about QBs who still produced playing behind terrible lines in the modern era.  To be clear, I freely admit the W/L will be impacted; however, a QB can still produce and showcase unique abilities playing behind below-avg OLs.  To date, DJ has done neither...

Mahomes Stats Tampa Bay Super Bowl

52.3 passer rating. 0 TDs. 2 interceptions in a 31-9 loss.

I believe your claim that Mahomes played well in that game is not supported by the stats or the eyeball test. Mahomes struggled the entire game and was largely ineffective with the loss of two starting tackles


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Quote from: todge on April 21, 2024, 01:34:01 PMMahomes Stats Tampa Bay Super Bowl

52.3 passer rating. 0 TDs. 2 interceptions in a 31-9 loss.

I believe your claim that Mahomes played well in that game is not supported by the stats or the eyeball test. Mahomes struggled the entire game and was largely ineffective with the loss of two starting tackles


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I'm a big fan of facts.  This is why I don't trust the "eye test" or memory.  Well done.  And this was with Kelce and Hill both playing, 2 of the best receivers in the league.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 21, 2024, 02:37:50 PMI'm a big fan of facts.  This is why I don't trust the "eye test" or memory.  Well done.  And this was with Kelce and Hill both playing, 2 of the best receivers in the league.

Interesting, because when it comes to DJ, you and Todge feel facts (ie stats) don't tell the whole story.  I guess in this one game, you're willing to make an exception because it fits your narrative.

Quote from: kingm56 on April 21, 2024, 02:47:11 PMInteresting, because when it comes to DJ, you and Todge feel facts (ie stats) don't tell the whole story.  I guess in this one game, you're willing to make an exception because it fits your narrative.

Absolutely hands down the best response I've ever heard for the whole DJ, Oline, Pat Mahomes in the super bowl statement. If you have time it's short but amazing.

https://youtu.be/6LE02qRfh9k?si=qs9hXV7KGa8X_Cfv

Quote from: kingm56 on April 21, 2024, 02:47:11 PMInteresting, because when it comes to DJ, you and Todge feel facts (ie stats) don't tell the whole story.  I guess in this one game, you're willing to make an exception because it fits your narrative.

In fairness Matt, you can't point to that game and say he played well.  Did he make some very good throws?  Yes of course.

Did he have an overall bad game?  Yes.  Why?  Because he got pressured all game.  Pressure makes QBs play worse.

How many sacks were the fault of Mahommes because you said yesterday like QBs affect their sack rate?

Mahommes was not a typical Mahommes that game.  The reason seems clear to me.

Quote from: Philosophers on April 21, 2024, 03:47:28 PMIn fairness Matt, you can't point to that game and say he played well.  Did he make some very good throws?  Yes of course.

Did he have an overall bad game?  Yes.  Why?  Because he got pressured all game.  Pressure makes QBs play worse.

How many sacks were the fault of Mahommes because you said yesterday like QBs affect their sack rate?

Mahommes was not a typical Mahommes that game.  The reason seems clear to me.

I don't believe I said he played well; I said it was clear he was the best player on the field with gifts no other QB has.  I'm also not a fan of deserting a single game to prove, or disprove anything.  I alway prefer to consider the aggregate. 

Quote from: kingm56 on April 21, 2024, 04:24:22 PMI'm also not a fan of deserting a single game to prove, or disprove anything.  I alway prefer to consider the aggregate. 

Completely agreed Matt. And we all know that anytime people repeatedly cling to the same single game or single example over and over to try make a very broad point, their underlying argument is usually false or at least weak. If it were a stronger argument they'd be able to point to many examples instead of bringing the same single one up over and over again, multiple years removed.

Quote from: kingm56 on April 21, 2024, 04:24:22 PMI don't believe I said he played well; I said it was clear he was the best player on the field with gifts no other QB has.  I'm also not a fan of deserting a single game to prove, or disprove anything.  I alway prefer to consider the aggregate. 

No you are right but you did say he would be the same Patrick and he was not that day.  Again it was be ause of the pressure.

Nobody (I think) is arguing that DJ would be Patrick Mahommes in same conditions (OL, WRs, etc).  He is an inferior QB no doubt.  However with good OL and WRs he would play better than he has though far from the elite QBs.

My problem is simply that great QBs play the same regardless of the play of others around them and that simply is not true.  The Burrow example cited in one season is just that, one season.  There have been other great QBs across the years and nobody getting sacked 60+ times in the season is leading the league in passing.

Quote from: Philosophers on April 21, 2024, 05:56:37 PMNo you are right but you did say he would be the same Patrick and he was not that day.  Again it was be ause of the pressure.

Nobody (I think) is arguing that DJ would be Patrick Mahommes in same conditions (OL, WRs, etc).  He is an inferior QB no doubt.  However with good OL and WRs he would play better than he has though far from the elite QBs.

My problem is simply that great QBs play the same regardless of the play of others around them and that simply is not true.  The Burrow example cited in one season is just that, one season.  There have been other great QBs across the years and nobody getting sacked 60+ times in the season is leading the league in passing.

Regardless of what happens in the draft next week do you think the Giants would be in the playoffs this upcoming season with:

Patrick Mahomes
Josh Allen
Goff
Prescott
Tua
Stroud
Purdy

I just listed those guys because they all statically finished in the top 6-8 last season.

Quote from: kingm56 on April 21, 2024, 02:47:11 PMInteresting, because when it comes to DJ, you and Todge feel facts (ie stats) don't tell the whole story.  I guess in this one game, you're willing to make an exception because it fits your narrative.

Wow, what a weak response.  Just take the L.  And I don't know what facts I overlook.  The fact that DJ has never played behind a top half OL?  The fact that he has never played with top half WRs?  The fact that in his first 3 years he had a poor development environment? 

This is not to take away anything that Patrick Mahomes has done, as he is an excellent QB.

I just wanted to share the Chiefs rankings of their offensive line that he's played behind since entering the league.

They are the following.

- 2017 ranked 16th
- 2018 ranked 13th
- 2019 ranked 16th
- 2020 ranked 11th
- 2021 ranked 5th
- 2022 ranked 9th

Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 21, 2024, 06:58:16 PMRegardless of what happens in the draft next week do you think the Giants would be in the playoffs this upcoming season with:

Patrick Mahomes
Josh Allen
Goff
Prescott
Tua
Stroud
Purdy

I just listed those guys because they all statically finished in the top 6-8 last season.

Nope.  No QB will get the Giants into playoffs without help in other positions.  A great QB may win a couple more games but I think that's it.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 21, 2024, 08:55:07 PMWow, what a weak response.  Just take the L.  And I don't know what facts I overlook.  The fact that DJ has never played behind a top half OL?  The fact that he has never played with top half WRs?  The fact that in his first 3 years he had a poor development environment? 

Oh, so Yards, TDs and Ints are good enough to judge Mahomes for ONE game, but not good enough to accurately assess DJ over 60 games...got it.

For the third time now, I never stated Mahomes had a great, or even good, game; in point of fact, I stated "I simply don't know how any fan could watch that game and not be an awe of Patrick Mahomes"; he demonstrated "unique skills" in that game no other QB could, or has, duplicated. The 20+ yard laser rope (while falling back) to Kelce on 3 and 8 (dropped), and the throw from a completely horizontal position (dropped) were unlike any plays I've ever seen.  He is a physically gifted human with a VERY unique skillset, which was on display in that SB, independent of the pressures.  As I explicitly stated, "you can't hide his type of talent", which was, and still is, my point.   I never viewed DJ as having any unique QB attributes, independent of his poor supporting cast.  In short, I'm never in awe of him...

Fundamentally, I object to using data, from a single game, in a vacuum, to derive any conclusion.  I could easily point to Burrows' 2022 playoff performance where Cinci set NFL Playoff records for pressures and sacks allowed.  In the divisional round, Burrow was sacked 9 times (NFL record), and under pressure for more than 50% of passing downs; yet, he went 28 of 37 for 348 yards.  I could also use Eli's playoff performance against SF, where he was sacked 6x and under pressure all day, in the rain; he still delivered a robust stat line, and delivered a few wow throws.  It's funny these performances (and others) are never mentioned when discussing the OLs impact on QBs.  It's always this Mahomes SB performance; again, one game, in a vacuum; forget the fact Mahomes got them to the SB with said crappy oline...

Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 21, 2024, 09:22:20 PMThis is not to take away anything that Patrick Mahomes has done, as he is an excellent QB.

I just wanted to share the Chiefs rankings of their offensive line that he's played behind since entering the league.

They are the following.

- 2017 ranked 16th
- 2018 ranked 13th
- 2019 ranked 16th
- 2020 ranked 11th
- 2021 ranked 5th
- 2022 ranked 9th

I forgot to add the chiefs 2023 offensive line ranking which was 5th.

So for the past four years Mahomes has played behind a top ten offensive line, sometimes top five.

Combined with having possibly the best offensive coach in the league Andy Reid.

Nice combination, just wanted to share