Big Blue Huddle

1)  Should Schoen be fired for passing on a good quarterback?

2)  Would you say that QBs perform differently in different situations and the Giants offense minus Nabers would have made it difficult to draft and develop a QB (who wasn't at least an elite prospect)?

3)  Would Jones performing very well, give Schoen and company a pass on one of the 3 later drafted QBs doing well?

I predict that if JJ McCarthy goes on to have an excellent career, the pro-Jones camp will attribute it to the team around him while the anti-Jones camp will put Schoen in the crosshairs for it, with the occasional mention of a Mara ultimatum.

1) No

2) No

3) No

Playing the hindsight game is pointless, IMO. Decisions are made with as much information that is available at that time. He made what he thought were the best choices for this team given the many circumstances. He, and we as fans, will live with those decisions. Anybody can sit back and second-guess and we all can sit behind our keyboards with zero pressure and say what we would do. But put us in the spotlight and on the hot seat and things look a lot different.

What's done is done. We press forward and move on.

If one of the three QBs that Schoen (and Mara) passed on has an outstanding season, here's what's going to happen here at the BBH:

- There will be a litany of "I told you so" threads from folks who wanted to move on from Jones
- There will be a ton of pushback from Jones supporters saying, "It's only one season. Daniel had a great 2022 and won a playoff game."
- There will be the same regurgitated arguments for and against Jones. The horse will be resuscitated to only be beaten to death again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Quote from: T200 on May 01, 2024, 09:02:43 AMIf one of the three QBs that Schoen (and Mara) passed on has an outstanding season, here's what's going to happen here at the BBH:

- There will be a litany of "I told you so" threads from folks who wanted to move on from Jones
- There will be a ton of pushback from Jones supporters saying, "It's only one season. Daniel had a great 2022 and won a playoff game."
- There will be the same regurgitated arguments for and against Jones. The horse will be resuscitated to only be beaten to death again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Painful isn't it?

Quote from: T200 on May 01, 2024, 09:02:43 AM1) No

2) No

3) No

Playing the hindsight game is pointless, IMO. Decisions are made with as much information that is available at that time. He made what he thought were the best choices for this team given the many circumstances. He, and we as fans, will live with those decisions. Anybody can sit back and second-guess and we all can sit behind our keyboards with zero pressure and say what we would do. But put us in the spotlight and on the hot seat and things look a lot different.

What's done is done. We press forward and move on.

If one of the three QBs that Schoen (and Mara) passed on has an outstanding season, here's what's going to happen here at the BBH:

- There will be a litany of "I told you so" threads from folks who wanted to move on from Jones
- There will be a ton of pushback from Jones supporters saying, "It's only one season. Daniel had a great 2022 and won a playoff game."
- There will be the same regurgitated arguments for and against Jones. The horse will be resuscitated to only be beaten to death again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Thankfully this is Jones' final season and we can start to move forward next year. I think the excitement of finding an actual lethal QB will have fans not so worried about what we missed but what we can have for ourselves.

Quote from: TONKA56 on May 01, 2024, 08:55:29 AMI predict that if JJ McCarthy goes on to have an excellent career, the pro-Jones camp will attribute it to the team around him while the anti-Jones camp will put Schoen in the crosshairs for it, with the occasional mention of a Mara ultimatum.

I don't think that will be the case. I assume you put me in the "pro-Jones" camp.  I believe even with disparate support, we can get a sense of how good another QB is.  I don't even think JJ (a prospect I liked) needs to be better than Jones to question passing on him.  There is the issue of the cheap rookie contract that comes with JJ that would have helped the Giants salary cap.

In my opinion, passing on the three QBs comes with significant risk for Schoen and the company.  I have to think that they are banking on Jones having a comeback (or failing that being in a position to acquire his replacement next offseason) or they truly don't see the 3 prospects available to them as being anything special.

Quote from: T200 on May 01, 2024, 09:02:43 AM1) No

2) No

3) No

Playing the hindsight game is pointless, IMO. Decisions are made with as much information that is available at that time. He made what he thought were the best choices for this team given the many circumstances. He, and we as fans, will live with those decisions. Anybody can sit back and second-guess and we all can sit behind our keyboards with zero pressure and say what we would do. But put us in the spotlight and on the hot seat and things look a lot different.

What's done is done. We press forward and move on.

If one of the three QBs that Schoen (and Mara) passed on has an outstanding season, here's what's going to happen here at the BBH:

- There will be a litany of "I told you so" threads from folks who wanted to move on from Jones
- There will be a ton of pushback from Jones supporters saying, "It's only one season. Daniel had a great 2022 and won a playoff game."
- There will be the same regurgitated arguments for and against Jones. The horse will be resuscitated to only be beaten to death again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Tim,

I can't disagree with your sentiment.   I will say, though, if you don't like being second-guessed, being an NFL GM (or head coach) is the wrong career choice.  Being an armchair GM/HC/QB is part of the fun of being a fan.

There is no guarantee that any of those quarterbacks, even if they demonstrate "success" on their current teams, would accomplish the same with the Giants.

You want the QB, you lose the WR. Slayton remains your #1 for better or worse. The talk about everything else remains the same.

So, it comes down to the same old argument. Is it one of the QBs available at pick six (NOTE: not just McCarthy) or is it Nabers?

You've got your chocolate in my peanut butter! No!!! You've got your peanut butter all over my chocolate!

And, as the legendary Chris Allen would say ...

"And the beat goes on!!!"

Goodnight Gracie!

Peace!

P.S. Joe Schoen revealed his draft strategy and went with plan 1B (Nabers) after taking a crack at 1A (Trading up with NE for pick 3). I think his intent was clear regarding Jones' replacement vs. giving him a real receiver plus fixing the offensive line this off-season.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 09:10:20 AMI don't think that will be the case. I assume you put me in the "pro-Jones" camp.  I believe even with disparate support, we can get a sense of how good another QB is.

            

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 09:12:21 AMTim,

I can't disagree with your sentiment.   I will say, though, if you don't like being second-guessed, being an NFL GM (or head coach) is the wrong career choice.  Being an armchair GM/HC/QB is part of the fun of being a fan.

As a fan, and in general, I try not to engage in it. It's self-defeatist, in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure all GMs and coaches know being second-guessed by fans and the media are a part of the job. They expect it and it probably doesn't phase them.

Quote from: T200 on May 01, 2024, 09:15:53 AM           

I will admit that some of that is assuming that Jones is healthy and will get a chance to operate in at least a minimally supportive NFL quarterback environment this season.  Plus, we have 2022, where DJ did operate in a less-than-ideal, but at least not dysfunctional (like 2023) environment.  Much like Schoen and Daboll were able to evaluate Jones enough in 2022 to give him his big contract.

Quote from: kartanoman on May 01, 2024, 09:15:08 AMP.S. Joe Schoen revealed his draft strategy and went with plan 1B (Nabers) after taking a crack at 1A (Trading up with NE for pick 3). I think his intent was clear regarding Jones' replacement vs. giving him a real receiver plus fixing the offensive line this off-season.

100% this.

I also wanted to get a replacement for Jones but my caveat was that it had to be someone Schoen and Daboll had the utmost confidence in that he could be the franchise QB for the next 10-15 years. They made a play for him and it didn't work. And I'm 100% OK with how the draft shook out for us.

Quote from: T200 on May 01, 2024, 09:19:06 AMAs a fan, and in general, I try not to engage in it. It's self-defeatist, in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure all GMs and coaches know being second-guessed by fans and the media are a part of the job. They expect it and it probably doesn't phase them.

Tim,

I will confess I like to play armchair GM (and occasional HC).  Team-building just fascinates me.  Although I have my ideas of what I would do, I tend not to second-guess the actual GM or HC because I know they make their decisions wth far more information than I do; plus, they know their profession better than I do.  I think all of us do give in to the second-guessing temptation when dealing with GMs like Gettleman and HCs like Joe Judge.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 09:19:32 AMI will admit that some of that is assuming that Jones is healthy and will get a chance to operate in at least a minimally supportive NFL quarterback environment this season.  Plus, we have 2022, where DJ did operate in a less-than-ideal, but at least not dysfunctional (like 2023) environment.  Much like Schoen and Daboll were able to evaluate Jones enough in 2022 to give him his big contract.

I have been saying this every single year Jones has been in the league: he can be evaluated despite what support he has or doesn't have around him. I got a lot of pushback from you and others saying that it was too difficult to evaluate him because of the lack of quality NFL support.

Seems to me the ability to evaluate a player is subjective.

Quote from: T200 on May 01, 2024, 09:27:08 AMI have been saying this every single year Jones has been in the league: he can be evaluated despite what support he has or doesn't have around him. I got a lot of pushback from you and others saying that it was too difficult to evaluate him because of the lack of quality NFL support.

Seems to me the ability to evaluate a player is subjective.

Tim,

I think there is a nuance on this issue.  In a dysfunctional environment, every, or nearly every, QB will look bad.   In a poor environment, people should factor in the poor environment (many do not).

More importantly, the ability to properly evaluate a quarterback is really the purview of that quarterback's coaching staff.  As Daboll once said, people don't know the play calls.  An apparent open receiver may be meaningless because they ran the wrong route.   The fact of the matter is that we can get a sense of QB play by watching the games (or better yet, reviewing the all-22 with an informed eye), but no one outside the organization can evaluate with a strong degree of certainty (lacking the play calls and the QB's instructions).