Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: BluesCruz on May 03, 2024, 10:06:39 AMWell...... based upon Tom Bradys rotisserie of average WRs playing way above their heads, you have to go with the QB position

"The clothes" do not make the man....never believed that old saying

for sure...but he also had a good to great oline most of his career, and the perfect system for him to work in. think about how many guys they were able to swap out like edelman and welker over the years basically seamlessly. the system you are in can be just as important as the people executing it. save for the randy moss years, tom was never exactly airing it out. he was hitting guys underneath that could pick up YAC.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 11:24:44 AMI agree, although some will point to the Bengals SB run as proof you don't need a line.  I would counter by saying they haven't sniffed the SB since, and their QB is frequently injured.

An elite qb and elite receiver can certainly help circumvent line issues. but as you pointed out, dont expect it to last

Quote from: PSUBeirut on May 03, 2024, 12:44:35 PMThe second you use the word "great" the answer is quarterback.  I could see a real argument around good/very good WR vs. good/very good QB- but the great QBs are definitely much more important to their teams than great WRs. 

Rodgers comes to mind. he had some decent wr's at times (nelson, adams), but for the most part he was playing with guys that you couldn't remember a few years later.

I am going to add an observation I think is reasonably on topic. What is a really great driver of an offense is a long-time pairing of a receiver (WR or TE) with a quarterback. I think the longer the pair works together, the better they get.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 03, 2024, 11:21:09 AMAnd both times the Giants beat Brady-led teams in the SB they did it by breaking down his OL.

A-Gap pressure is the great equalizer.

There is no single one player who has more influence on the offense than the QB. The fact that they get paid much more than any single other position is not an accident. Obviously, you need a lot more than just a very good QB to win tough games in this league, but no single individual position is more important.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 03:30:27 PMI am going to add an observation I think is reasonably on topic. What is a really great driver of an offense is a long-time pairing of a receiver (WR or TE) with a quarterback. I think the longer the pair works together, the better they get.

I was thinking along that line when considering whether or not to bring Slayton back. He's worked a long time with DJ and has done a bit better than average because of it. The two know exactly how to work together

To add to the Tom Brady conversation, not only did he do a lot of dink and dunk, he usually had two great TEs to take the ball further down the field. Not wanting to take anything away from Brady, but he wasn't without some pretty good receivers to help out

Also brady had amazing defenses the first 3 superbowls
Look.at.mahomes now
He only has to.score 21 to 24 ptd cause the defense hold the other team to.less than 20
How many QB makes the WR 
How many QBs  playing now do you think makes the WR special ?
I would say less than 5 if that many

 I don't think it is even close. The QB is the guy who handles the ball on every single play. The WR may get 10 touches all game. The QB can function with a decent WR and make several others look a lot better than they really are. A great WR can't make an average QB look great.

The QB is the leader of any team, not the WR. PERIOD

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 03, 2024, 04:47:29 PMThere is no single one player who has more influence on the offense than the QB. The fact that they get paid much more than any single other position is not an accident. Obviously, you need a lot more than just a very good QB to win tough games in this league, but no single individual position is more important.

The QB is definitely the most important of the three legs.  And sometimes can overcome having one of the 3 legs being sub-standard.  But if both of the other 2 legs suck, as has been the case for the Giants during DJs tenure with the Giants, I don't think it matters how good the QB is.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 03, 2024, 10:20:38 AMWhat is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line.

Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their careers.

It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense.

Did you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...
 
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.


It's complete myth that Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the online was bad.  During that span, Brady continued to play at an AP/MVP level, winning more SBs.
 

Here's an exert:
2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MFP/AP/SP Winner regardless of his protection.

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli and Brady reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

Don't forget also that in 2011 Victor Cruz exploded onto the scene from nowhere. Defenses had no answer for Cruz, Nicks, and Manningham and had to pick thier poison. Meanwhile Jake Ballard developed a penchant for the amazing clutch catch. 

So I'd say Manning, JPP, and Cruz carried the Giants to the playoffs. 

Quote from: TONKA56 on May 04, 2024, 06:50:21 AMDon't forget also that in 2011 Victor Cruz exploded onto the scene from nowhere. Defenses had no answer for Cruz, Nicks, and Manningham and had to pick thier poison. Meanwhile Jake Ballard developed a penchant for the amazing clutch catch. 

So I'd say Manning, JPP, and Cruz carried the Giants to the playoffs. 

No doubt, Tonka.  I was merely responding to false-narrative that Brady and Manning required high-performing Olines to be successful.  Cruz was as integral to the Giants' success as JPP, but no player was as important as Eli...what a great year he had!

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was able to overcome terrible oline play
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to giving up just 16 sacks
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB role in that stat; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

2011 was a bit of an anomaly.   The Giants were just 9-7 during the regular season.  Frankly, they didn't even look as good as their record most of the time.  However, health and the playoffs inspired much better play from the offensive line, which helped propel the Giants to their 4th Super Bowl trophy.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 07:13:10 AM2011 was a bit of an anomaly.   The Giants were just 9-7 during the regular season.  Frankly, they didn't even look as good as their record most of the time.  However, health and the playoffs inspired much better play from the offensive line, which helped propel the Giants to their 4th Super Bowl trophy.

I'll grant you that point; however, that's not the point being discussed here. The point was made that high-performing Oline(s) were the most critical component to Eli's and Brady's success, during thier primes. Clearly, that statement is factually false. 

BTW, Eli was fairly consistent between 2008 and 15, regardless of his oline rankings:

2008*   27   NYG   QB   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009   28   NYG   QB   16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010   29   NYG   QB   16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   NYG   QB   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   NYG   QB   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013   32   NYG   QB   16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014   33   NYG   QB   16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   NYG   QB   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB

Age clearly caught up with him during the 2016+ seasons...