Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 03, 2024, 08:40:01 PMAll of those accomplishments you listed happened as a rookie besides the coming back against a horrible Arizona team. Most of the people he was listed with outside Peyton and Russell haven't exactly taken the league by storm.

Kinda like the "how it started, how it's going" meme.

As a Rookie he also has the 3rd most turnovers for a rookie in NFL history with 5 less than Deshon Kizer and 2 less than Geno Smith.

100s of QB have played against bad teams, and never had they done what DJ did.   Look, in the end, you and @kingm56 and the other critics of Jones could ultimately be proven correct in that he will never be a quality starting quarterback.  In fact, with every season that they screw the young man up, it's looking more and more that DJ is never going to succeed.

That said, I would appreciate it if we try to be fair.  There have been flashes of brilliance by Jones; that is something most reasonable people would agree.   Flashes of brilliance don't mean Jones will ultimately be successful, so why not just concede the more than fair point?   It's like the other claim I hear from some of the critics, claiming the Giants have no one to throw them the ball.  As Jordan Raanan says, that's silly.  Jones has his flaws, but he is also an NFL thrower.  It's not like Jones is some little leaguer trying to play in the majors.

I don't think it hurts your case to concede the positives of the man.  If anything, it gives your opinions more validity because it shows you are capable of seeing and acknowledging the good and the bad.  If someone is only willing to see what supports their beliefs and finds excuses to dismiss anything else,  I tend not to value those opinions very highly as they are formed with a flawed process.

So we don't have to agree, but we all should find common ground in acknowledging the good and the bad.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 07:05:58 AMIn fact, with every season that they screw the young man up, it's looking more and more that DJ is never going to succeed.

That said, I would appreciate it if we try to be fair. 

Rich,

Is Jones himself responsible for any of his own failures?

Would you say it is "fair" to blame a QB's struggles entirely on everyone else and not hold the player accountable for any of it?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 08:22:09 AMRich,

Is Jones himself responsible for any of his own failures?

Would you say it is "fair" to blame a QB's struggles entirely on everyone else and not hold the player accountable for any of it?

Yes, but it's frustrating to hear fans talk like Jones has been put in a normal NFL QB situation.  Jones has had shortcomings; like any QB (potentially more), Jones has shortcomings.  It's just frustrating that some fans seem not to acknowledge the terrible (and it's really been some of the worst in the NFL) support he has received in his NFL career.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 08:46:22 AMYes, but it's frustrating to hear fans talk like Jones has been put in a normal NFL QB situation.  Jones has had shortcomings; like any QB (potentially more), Jones has shortcomings.  It's just frustrating that some fans seem not to acknowledge the terrible (and it's really been some of the worst in the NFL) support he has received in his NFL career.

But that's what happens when Qbs go to a bad team, they either rise above it or they don't. I don't hear anyone going to bat for Evan Neal or any other offensive player that have equally been failed by being on a team with Daniel Jones, but it's ok for them to all be used as an excuse for him. A 6th year player who still puts up advanced stats like a backup in year 6. Just wild that some can't see Jones is a huge reason for the bad offense.

Every QB has had flashes of brilliance. That is not a good argument

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 04, 2024, 09:05:11 AMBut that's what happens when Qbs go to a bad team, they either rise above it or they don't. I don't hear anyone going to bat for Evan Neal or any other offensive player that have equally been failed by being on a team with Daniel Jones, but it's ok for them to all be used as an excuse for him. A 6th year player who still puts up advanced stats like a backup in year 6. Just wild that some can't see Jones is a huge reason for the bad offense.

Jess,

QB's rising above terrible situations is extremely rare.  Sometimes, what appears to be a QB rising above a bad situation is more illusion than reality.  The Texans and CJ Stroud is a perfect example.  The 2022 Texans were a terrible team.  Yet, between FA additions, an extremely good draft, and a major coaching upgrade, the 2023 Texans were much better regardless of the addition of CJ Stroud. 

I guess you can look at first-overall pick QB like Lawerence or highly touted Herbert as players who put up pretty good stats (although in situations considerably better than Jones had).  Still, while their raw stats were pretty good (although in the case of Lawerence, they are on par with DJ's), their team's success didn't reflect their QB's success

Quote from: Trench on May 04, 2024, 09:10:22 AMEvery QB has had flashes of brilliance. That is not a good argument

This comment sort of reflects the issue with discussing Jones.  Uncle Mickey had "showed flashes of brilliance" as a part of an argument.  The Jones critics focused on that part of the argument and first claimed Jones never showed brilliance.  Then, when you show historic accomplishments that any reasonable person would say was a flash of brilliance, the goalposts were moved, and it was claimed failed QBs had shown flashes of brilliance (not sure what that even means in context to UM's original point).  Finally, we have an entire point Uncle Mickey made thrown out, and it's declared the point that Jones has shown flashes of brilliance is now the entire argument, and clearly, that argument is a "bad one."

How can there be quality conversation in conditions like that?

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 09:15:46 AMThis comment sort of reflects the issue with discussing Jones.  Uncle Mickey had "showed flashes of brilliance" as a part of an argument.  The Jones critics focused on that part of the argument and first claimed Jones never showed brilliance.  Then, when you show historic accomplishments that any reasonable person would say was a flash of brilliance, the goalposts were moved, and it was claimed failed QBs had shown flashes of brilliance (not sure what that even means in context to UM's original point).  Finally, we have an entire point Uncle Mickey made thrown out, and it's declared the point that Jones has shown flashes of brilliance is now the entire argument, and clearly, that argument is a "bad one."

How can there be quality conversation in conditions like that?

The better question: How can you have a quality conversation when the opposing viewpoint reframes aggregate responses to benefit thier position?  Pray Tell, show me where the "Jones Critics" dismissed his 'brilliance.' Indeed, DJ's had some wonderful games/movements.  Nobody dismises that point; some, put them into context, like @Jess who noted most occurred during his rookie campaign.   However, that's not the majority point.  The point was, and still is, a lot of professional QBs have moments of brilliance, especially QBs with 60 starts.  However, you chose to completely ignore that point, presumably because you don't have a good response; thus, you simply reframed the oppositions' position to give yourself the moral and intellectual high-ground.         

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 09:27:27 AMThe better question: How can you have a quality conversation when the opposing viewpoint reframes aggregate responses to benefit thier position?  Pray Tell, show me where the "Jones Critics" dismissed his 'brilliance.' Indeed, DJ's had some wonderful games/movements.  However, that's not the majority point.  The point was, and still is, a lot of professional QBs have moments of brilliance, especially QBs with 60 starts.  However, you chose to completely ignore that point, presumably because you don't have a good response; thus, you simply reframed the oppositions' position to give yourself the moral and intellectual high-ground.         

Even now, instead of hearing what I said and making an effort to understand my point, you only listen to the extent needed to formulate some sort of rebuttal

 

I used to disagree with Ed in terms of debate.  Ed opposed debate, while I thought it could be fun.   I think the problem is what we saw as debate.  I guess I saw the debate as discussing differing points of view, while I suspect Ed was seeing it as never listening to what the other side said and instead focusing all of one's efforts to try and prove that person wrong.

I spent considerable thought and effort trying to improve the quality of discourse, only to have those comments fall on deaf ears, and the issues I raised were just added to. I don't know what else I can do.

 

You win, whatever it is you think you are winning.  I can't keep going around in circles like this.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 08:46:22 AMYes, but it's frustrating to hear fans talk like Jones has been put in a normal NFL QB situation.  Jones has had shortcomings; like any QB (potentially more), Jones has shortcomings.  It's just frustrating that some fans seem not to acknowledge the terrible (and it's really been some of the worst in the NFL) support he has received in his NFL career.

That is fair. I have never denied that Jones' circumstances are substantially less than ideal if not downright poor. The whole team has been downright poor (or perhaps mediocre in some areas). I just don't think this 100% absolves Jones himself from his frequently poor play, nor do I think it 100% accounts for his lack of durability either. I appreciate that, based on your response above, you don't seem to feel that way either. I guess where we may differ is I have never seen any evidence (either before or after Jones arrived in the NFL) that he is going to be particularly good. You have said if everything around him gets better he can be a top 10 starter. I can't see that myself, but I'd certainly be delighted if it happened while he's still a Giant, which in my opinion is unlikely to extend beyond 2024.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 04, 2024, 01:59:40 AMPeople forget that there was a reason his (stupid) nickname was Danny Dimes after his rookie year.

DJ was 29-34 that preseason. And some of those balls he threw were absolute dots. It also translated to the season as well. His issue as a rookie was ball security and understanding how to run without getting annihilated by NFL defenders.

He has since cleaned that part up. Now if we get him a better coached OL (possibly checked off now) and an actual half decent WR group (possibly ALSO checked off now) with a viable offensive system (that too may be checked off under Daboll/Kafka)

I think we all whatever we think of DJ all (mostly) agree that DJ has had a very subpar support system of those 3 items for his career.

I don't think it's an impossibility that he looks more like the player we have seen have some very high level games now that those things could finally be in place.

Some may disagree that is a reasonable view. Fine. Well either way there is a good chance it's going to happen this year health withstanding, him being the starting QB that is. So why not just hope for the positive outcome. Otherwise why even bother watching this season?

Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 04, 2024, 01:59:40 AMPeople forget that there was a reason his (stupid) nickname was Danny Dimes after his rookie year.

The Giants pushing the "Danny Dimes" nickname was a classic PR blunder.   If Gettleman and NYG were savvy, they would have let it leak to one or two draftniks or insiders that they had an interest in Daniel Jones in the draft.  Part of the overall negative reaction to Jones being drafted at 6 is it made the draftniks who failed to predict that look bad (since where players are drafted is really the only measure for people in the draftnik community).   Had there been leaks and some draftniks looked good by calling the pick, the reception would have been at least less negative.

Calling a rookie QB "Danny Dimes" before he even took a regular-season snap just put a bull's eye on Jones.

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 04, 2024, 10:14:12 AMDJ was 29-34 that preseason. And some of those balls he threw were absolute dots. It also translated to the season as well. His issue as a rookie was ball security and understanding how to run without getting annihilated by NFL defenders.

He has since cleaned that part up. Now if we get him a better coached OL (possibly checked off now) and an actual half decent WR group (possibly ALSO checked off now) with a viable offensive system (that too may be checked off under Daboll/Kafka)

I think we all whatever we think of DJ all (mostly) agree that DJ has had a very subpar support system of those 3 items for his career.

I don't think it's an impossibility that he looks more like the player we have seen have some very high level games now that those things could finally be in place.

Some may disagree that is a reasonable view. Fine. Well either way there is a good chance it's going to happen this year health withstanding, him being the starting QB that is. So why not just hope for the positive outcome. Otherwise why even bother watching this season?

Brother, the pre season is rarely in indicator on future success; id caution you from trying to glean anything from those pointless exhibitions.

Regardless, I appreciate the conversation and how you carry yourself.  Again, I look forward to future discussions.

Btw, I hope the Giants aren't relying on hope, as hope is not a viable course of action 😝

The most unbelievable part in this equation hasn't been DJ's production as much as it has been an organization's abject failure to provide him with anywhere near a functional supports system.

I think some are looking for something to blame and have trouble seeing that the support system when you try and best apply metrics to it and it's overall ineptitude that it would rank among the league worst if not the league worst over the last five years when you account for both the coaching side and the talent side of the main things needed for a successful passing game.

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 04, 2024, 10:24:23 AMThe most unbelievable part in this equation hasn't been DJ's production as much as it has been an organization's abject failure to provide him with anywhere near a functional supports system.

I think some are looking for something to blame and have trouble seeing that the support system when you try and best apply metrics to it and it's overall ineptitude that it would rank among the league worst if not the league worst over the last five years when you account for both the coaching side and the talent side of the main things needed for a successful passing game.

This requires further explanation. Are you claiming the HC and OC are part of the problem?  If so, can you explain their successes in KC and Buff?  I also believe the Giants have some talent that's being hindered by the QB. Is it a coincidence that Robinson started to emerge with the backup QB?  Can we also agree that DJ enjoyed playing with a top 3 LT and RB? 

His support system was indeed below average; however, you lost me on the coaching aspect.  I also think it's a bit of stretch to say his Kitchen was completely bare.