Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 10:32:29 AMThis requires further explanation. Are you claiming the HC and OC are part of the problem?  If so, can you explain their successes in KC and Buff?  I also believe the Giants have some talent that's being hindered by the QB. Is it a coincidence that Robinson started to emerge with the backup QB?  Can we also agree that DJ enjoyed playing with a top 3 LT and RB? 

If you believe Kafka didn't have issues, how do you explain Daboll seeking to take away (and he did take away multiple times last season) play-calling duties?

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 10:35:56 AMIf you believe Kafka didn't have issues, how do you explain Daboll seeking to take away (and he did take away multiple times last season) play-calling duties?

You answered a question with a question. Again, can anyone explain why Kafka was a hot OC, led the leagues best passing game in KC, was considered a Genius here in 2022, but is now a reason for DJs failures?  I'd also like to hear more about how a hot OC in Buff and NFL CoY is also part of DJs problem.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 10:42:32 AMYou answered a question with a question. Again, can explain why Kafka was a hot OC and led the leagues best passing game in KC, but a reason for DJs failures here?  I'd also like to hear more about how a hot OC in Buff and NFL CoY is part of DJs problem.

I think you are overstating things when you claim that Kafka "led the league's best passing game."   Kafka wasn't the OC; he was the quarterback's coach & passing game coordinator.  To make matters worse, Andy Reid, rather than the OC, calls the plays for the Chiefs.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 10:44:51 AMI think you are overstating things when you claim that Kafka "led the league's best passing game."  Kafka wasn't the OC; he was the quarterback's coach & passing game coordinator.  To make matters worse, Andy Reid, rather than the OC, calls the plays for the Chiefs.

In my opinion, QBs (and the rest of their offenses) tend to make OCs - not the other way around. Daboll himself is a good example. He had been an OC in numerous places prior to Buffalo and was never considered anything noteworthy until he got Josh Allen. Every other OC job he had before that led to him being fired. After spending a few years with Josh Allen as the OC, he was suddenly the hottest candidate for a head coaching job in the league. How come that never happened after any of his prior OC stints?

Please don't misconstrue the above as a claim on my part that some OCs are not better than others. I am not saying that at all and don't think that. Clearly some are very good, some are very bad, and many are somewhere in between. All I am saying is the guys on the field matter more than the guy with the headset. And the final numerical arbiter of value (compensation) duly reflects that.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 10:44:51 AMI think you are overstating things when you claim that Kafka "led the league's best passing game."   Kafka wasn't the OC; he was the quarterback's coach & passing game coordinator.  To make matters worse, Andy Reid, rather than the OC, calls the plays for the Chiefs.

Again, you're obfuscating.  Can you please answer the question. Putting everything aside, why did both the OC and HC have immense success in KC and Buff, but considered a hindrance to DJ now? Why weren't they hinderances in 2022? 

Isn't it more likely DJ is a hindrance to the HC, than the latter is to the former?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 10:53:09 AMIn my opinion, QBs (and the rest of their offenses) tend to make OCs - not the other way around. Daboll himself is a good example. He had been an OC in numerous places prior to Buffalo and was never considered anything noteworthy until he got Josh Allen. Every other OC job he had before that led to him being fired. After spending a few years with Josh Allen as the OC, he was suddenly the hottest candidate for a head coaching job in the league. How come that never happened after any of his prior OC stints?

Please don't misconstrue the above as a claim on my part that some OCs are not better than others. I am not saying that at all and don't think that. Clearly some are very good, some are very bad, and many are somewhere in between. All I am saying is the guys on the field matter more than the guy with the headset. And the final numerical arbiter of value (compensation) duly reflects that.

If you really want to appreciate the importance of the OC in the grand scheme of things, just compare the 2022 Eagles offense versus the 2023 Eagles offense.  Under one OC in 2022, they were 3rd in both points and yards.  With essentially the same roster but a new OC, that unit was ranked 7th in points and yards under their new OC.

Still, the debate over the relative importance of coaching versus talent has been going on since football was first invented.  So I doubt we will resolve the issue now.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 10:59:22 AMwhy did both the OC and HC have immense success in KC and Buff

Because both the Chiefs and the Bills have immensely more talented rosters from top to bottom.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 11:04:01 AMIf you really want to appreciate the importance of the OC in the grand scheme of things, just compare the 2022 Eagles offense versus the 2023 Eagles offense.  Under one OC in 2022, they were 3rd in both points and yards.  With essentially the same roster but a new OC, that unit was ranked 7th in points and yards under their new OC.

Still, the debate over the relative importance of coaching versus talent has been going on since football was first invented.  So I doubt we will resolve the issue now.

There is nothing to resolve if you agree that players are more important than coaches overall. That's all I am saying. If you think coaches are more important than players, or even that the two are equal, then
we can mutually respectfully agree to disagree.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 10:32:29 AMThis requires further explanation. Are you claiming the HC and OC are part of the problem?  If so, can you explain their successes in KC and Buff?  I also believe the Giants have some talent that's being hindered by the QB. Is it a coincidence that Robinson started to emerge with the backup QB?  Can we also agree that DJ enjoyed playing with a top 3 LT and RB? 

His support system was indeed below average; however, you lost me on the coaching aspect.  I also think it's a bit of stretch to say his Kitchen was completely bare.

The coaching , he did have with Shurmur at least from an offensive standpoint but he wasn't more than an average to above average offensive coach. He isn't like some hot name in coaching circles right now, to be quite frank. However he definitely wasn't terrible either. Garrett was absolutely horrific and Daboll/Kafka is likely an above average to better than that coach.

However, with that said, you also need an offensive line to be functional , combined with some level of decent WRs. When you take those two critical aspects of the support system into account, it's hard to argue this wasn't a bottom of the barrel combination his entire career.

I agree the kitchen wasn't bare but it wasn't far off.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:18:54 AMThere is nothing to resolve if you agree that players are more important than coaches overall. That's all I am saying. If you think coaches are more important than players, or even that the two are equal, then
we can mutually respectfully agree to disagree.

I am afraid I can't agree with your assertion. If I were to put it in simple terms of who is more important, coaches or talent, I would put it at about even. Still, I think to appreciate the situation fully, it's important to appreciate the interaction between coaching and talent. Great coaching will make their talent look better than it is through superior player development and putting players in a position to thrive (as well as optimal motivation), and vice versa for poor coaching.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:18:54 AMThere is nothing to resolve if you agree that players are more important than coaches overall. That's all I am saying. If you think coaches are more important than players, or even that the two are equal, then
we can mutually respectfully agree to disagree.

I think this is a fascinating topic but even this is fairly nuanced. It depends on the situation. Some players are naturally motivated for greatness and need little motivation so from that standpoint coaching is lessened. However where coaching is always critical is scheme. A Garrett scheme in today's NFL is easily neutered no matter what talent you have on the field. It was a horrific scheme. We even see a guy like Engram do quite a bit better outside that Garrett scheme.

Here's another great recent example: Eagles last year were not diametrically different than the prior year talent wise. The biggest difference on that team is they lost a marquis OC and DC that were so highly esteemed in NFL circles, that they got promoted to head coaches elsewhere. The OC and DC they replaced them with last year were not good and it subsequently manifested on the field.  Roseman being the strong GM he is, wasted no time replacing them with marquis guys in Moore and Fangio.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 11:22:54 AMI am afraid I can't agree with your assertion. If I were to put it in simple terms of who is more important, coaches or talent, I would put it at about even. Still, I think to appreciate the situation fully, it's important to appreciate the interaction between coaching and talent. Great coaching will make their talent look better than it is through superior player development and putting players in a position to thrive (as well as optimal motivation), and vice versa for poor coaching.

The best players get paid a lot more than the best coaches, and, unlike coaches, players are bound by a salary cap so it's even harder to pay them than it is coaches.

Could this discrepancy between player and coach pay be because players are more valuable, or is it because the people who run NFL teams and have spent their whole careers and almost their whole lives deeply involved in this sport are all lost and just don't get it?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:38:19 AMThe best players get paid a lot more than the best coaches, and, unlike coaches, players are bound by a salary cap so it's even harder to pay them than it is coaches.

Could this discrepancy between player and coach pay be because players are more valuable, or is it because the people who run NFL teams and have spent their whole careers and almost their whole lives deeply involved in this sport are all lost and just don't get it?

I was taught price was determined by supply and demand, not by the perceived "value" of the goods or service

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:38:19 AMThe best players get paid a lot more than the best coaches, and, unlike coaches, players are bound by a salary cap so it's even harder to pay them than it is coaches.

Could this discrepancy between player and coach pay be because players are more valuable, or is it because the people who run NFL teams and have spent their whole careers and almost their whole lives deeply involved in this sport are all lost and just don't get it?

Tangible vs the intangible.  Teachers are some of the most important people in the entire world yet look at their salaries lol

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 04, 2024, 11:46:10 AMTangible vs the intangible.  Teachers are some of the most important people in the entire world yet look at their salaries lol

The NFL is a for profit business. It's all about maxing out profits. That is not the case with education and teachers. So I respectfully disagree with this comparison.