Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: LennG on May 05, 2024, 04:29:45 PMIn the other thread about Eli, if memory serves, you were sort of complaining that people were 'cheery picking' about Eli and ONE year with a bad OL. Well, aren't you guilty of the same thing when you continually bring up the ONE year Jones had a decent enough year, 2022? For the most part, in most of the other years, Jones had been bad, in fact, worse than bad, awful would be a better term.
I'm not picking on you, but this has been a constant with people who think Jones is good and all he needs is a good OL, great WRs, and a good running game to be successful. As Dave said, he really needs to change his approach to the game. He simply doesn't even look downfield anymore, he puts the ball way and runs way too often, especially for an injury-prone QB. He still stares down too many receivers and just opts to dump it off just way too often.
PLUS, who says our OL will be that much better this year? All we can do is hope.

Hi Lenn,

Thank you so much for your expressions and how you feel and thank you for saying that you are not picking on me, as I do appreciate that.

I have kind of said what I needed to say in the other thread, but I will leave you with these comments that may help to see where I am coming from.

You may feel that Daniel Jones only had one good year in 2022, but I believe he also played well in 2019, which was his rookie year. As he threw for 24 TDs to 12 Int's.

So, I would say he has had two good years, and not just one.

I would also say that in 2020, 2021, and 2023 were not good years for him, but he has only played in five seasons. 

Eli Manning on the other hand played from 2004-2018, that is eighteen years of football, so a big difference.

Do I think Daniel Jones is an elite QB? No, I do not.

But can he bounce back from last year? Absolutely.

However, considering the situation of where the Giants were picking from, I do believe that they made the right call in drafting an elite WR, to pair up with DJ, instead of taking the 4th or 5th best QB left on the board. 

That is where I stand.

However, in the end, what everyone thinks is just an opinion. The proof will be in the pudding and the eating thereof.

If Daniel Jones is too make it, this year he needs to produce, and so does the team.

However, if he doesn't produce, he is out, but, if he does produce then he will continue to be the starting QB of the New York Giants.

but only time will tell.

Please be well and take care.

Oh wow! These criteria, all the different laundry lists, it's a wonder he hasn't already cleaned out his locker and said "who needs this?"

I like Trench's criteria the best. It doesn't get any easier than beat the Cowboys and Eagles. If he and the Giants could do that twice a year, and throw the team formerly known as the Redskins x two, for good measure, he can stay as long as he wants.

Oh, maybe one more thing.

Instead of 0-41, how about give us a 41-0 and we'll let all be forgiven.

Easy enough, right?

Peace!

2022 stats aren't good enough (they're really not great, but that's beside the point). The Giants paid him after that season with the hope that he would be better going forward and evolve. That didn't happen. Instead, we saw a complete regression. I've stated in other threads that I think the only situation that makes them rethink Jones is an MVP-caliber season. And that doesn't guarantee they retain him, I think they just have a harder conversation about it.

To those who say another playoff win (or some variation short of Superbowl victory) would change the Giants mind on Jones: the 49ers went to a Superbowl (2019) and conference championship (2021) with Jimmy Garropollo. They still decided to move on from him (and paid an insane premium to miss on Trey Lance to do so). There's plenty of tape on Jones. Even if some miracle happens and the Giants go on a deep playoff run, it guarantees nothing in my mind.

Due to his contract amount, play as a top 10 QB.

look the part. its still a pretty bad roster and my expectations for the team are fairly low. but as far as jones goes, dont look shell shocked. make some tight window/anticipation throws. don't get hurt. convert third downs. air it out a little bit. just look the part of a starting qb/franchise qb. stats arent always the greatest indicator, but i fully expect at least 3500/20 tds. minimum. no more 12 td seasons, its pathetic.

Quote from: Trench on May 05, 2024, 12:21:30 PMHe needs to show he can produce in the 2 minute drill both before halftime and especially at the end of the games. He has been sporadic at best in that area.

Lastly, he must win a playoff game this year and he has to beat Dallas and Philadelphia at least once each.

i think playoffs are unlikely, but yes winning in the division.. thats a big one. we arent going anywhere until we can go toe to toe with those 2 teams that have absolutely owned us over the last decade.

Sorry to be the pessimist / glass half empty guy...but I don't think there can be a scenario, hypothetical or not, to envision DJ on the team in 2025.  His biggest weakness is his lack of processing the defense and going through his reads.  This is a god given ability and you either have it or you don't.  I'm sorry, but he doesn't have it, which is why all of his other above average attributes have not matterd.   

Quote from: 4 Aces on May 05, 2024, 07:49:09 PMProduce.

I was going to say "win games" but I think there's a scenario where he produces but the team doesn't win, and he still comes out looking favorably.

The winning thing isn't just a Daniel Jones problem. That problem existed before DJ arrived. The most you can say is he couldn't elevate them out of the dysfunction. Few QBs (if any) would've. You've got to be careful reading too much into that, given the overall state.

However - careers are short and struggle is real. As Perry Fewell told Justin Tuck once (after his shoulder injury) "you don't get these years back". First time in his career he's got a legit WR1. Good slot WR. He's set up to have success in the passing game. I myself have defended him many times pointing out the impossible nature of having a bad OL w/bad skill players.

If he fails to produce, there's no more wondering what if. He's got enough now.*


*Provided Nabers isn't a bust, of course.

I think the victories are needed.  I don't think the wins factor significantly into the evaluation so much as a QB on a rookie contract is quite attractive.   If the Giants are in a position to draft a QB next draft, I think it would be hard for them not to pull the trigger because they would get that QB on a cheap rookie deal, which is a big help in terms of team building.

https://x.com/EDNJACK53/status/1787334586441085283

It's a really good question and there's a very high likelihood his fate has already been decided.  Didn't we already play this game going into 2022?  Is there any 1-year resume that washes out bad taste of 2023 from our mouths? 

Schoen has shown some real prudence by not reaching for a new quarterback (or any position really).  He didn't give up a big ransom to move up to 3.  He didn't panic and take JJ McCarthy.  He understands the implications contracts have on the cap and generally has the economics under control.  Next off-season, there are no rules for him.  Frankly it's sad that we'll have to wait until Year 3 of a GMs reign to see what he'll actually do when there are no handcuffs on him. 

Quote from: zephirus on May 06, 2024, 10:00:39 AMIt's a really good question and there's a very high likelihood his fate has already been decided.  Didn't we already play this game going into 2022?  Is there any 1-year resume that washes out bad taste of 2023 from our mouths? 

Schoen has shown some real prudence by not reaching for a new quarterback (or any position really).  He didn't give up a big ransom to move up to 3.  He didn't panic and take JJ McCarthy.  He understands the implications contracts have on the cap and generally has the economics under control.  Next off-season, there are no rules for him.  Frankly it's sad that we'll have to wait until Year 3 of a GMs reign to see what he'll actually do when there are no handcuffs on him. 

Schoen doesn't have a QB on a cheap rookie deal.  Schoen's appreciation of positional value does mean the team has an OT, Edge, CB, and WR all on cheap rookie deals.   Those are all the highly paid positions behind QB

That is not up to any of us to decide, but it certainly puts a lot of pressure on Schoen/Daboll et al.

Doubtless, he will have to lead the Giants to a winning/playoff season and so prove to all but his haters that he is worth his next 2 year's cost.

Otherwise, I'd rather not think of him and team having a mediocre season such that they may have to trade up in the next Draft so as to be able to gamble on a successor. But, of course, it's always more a matter of luck than anything else.

Cheers!

He will need to perform at a level that is commensurate with the better talent that is assembled around him.

Provided that the OL under Bracillo takes the expected and hopeful jump to league average or better in the advanced metrics like time to pressure and quality of pressure, and Nabers ends up being closer to OBJ and J'Marr Chase and Justin Jefferson rookie year than Rueben Randle, then DJ's production should not just slightly improve but drastically.

I hate placing numbers on this kind of thing because there are so many things that can happen in a season, but I'll play along.

His rookie year he threw for 24TDs and 12 INTs in 12 games.  I would fully expect something around that 2:1 per game ratio to justify continuing with him. So something in the area of 34TDs and 17INTs and 4000+ yards over a full season.

4000 yards by the way would put him right around the top 10 of last years QB rankings.

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-passing-yard-leaders-2023-to-2024

For more context 34 TDs would have been top 2 last year.

Top 10 puts him around 25TDs

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-passing-td-leaders-2023-to-2024


So asking for 34 as a barometer to keep him may be a bit extreme lol

25 TDs relative to last years top 10 is probably a fairer number.

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 06, 2024, 10:51:03 AMHe will need to perform at a level that is commensurate with the better talent that is assembled around him.

Provided that the OL under Bracillo takes the expected and hopeful jump to league average or better in the advanced metrics like time to pressure and quality of pressure, and Nabers ends up being closer to OBJ and J'Marr Chase and Justin Jefferson rookie year than Rueben Randle, then DJ's production should not just slightly improve but drastically.

I hate placing numbers on this kind of thing because there are so many things that can happen in a season, but I'll play along.

His rookie year he threw for 24TDs and 12 INTs in 12 games.  I would fully expect something around that 2:1 per game ratio to justify continuing with him. So something in the area of 34TDs and 17INTs and 4000+ yards over a full season.

4000 yards by the way would put him right around the top 10 of last years QB rankings.

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-passing-yard-leaders-2023-to-2024

For more context 34 TDs would have been top 2 last year.

Top 10 puts him around 25TDs

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-passing-td-leaders-2023-to-2024


So asking for 34 as a barometer to keep him may be a bit extreme lol

25 TDs relative to last years top 10 is probably a fairer number.

It just ain't that complicated. Good gosh!!!

Cheers!

It's true he regressed last year.

But any fair, deep-dive analysis?

If you were honest with yourself and someone told you Andrew Thomas, Saquon Barkley and Darren Waller were going to get seriously hurt immediately, and that Parris Campbell was going to bust, what would your expectations be?

As painful as last year was (literally, for DJ) - you can't evaluate anything. It was a fiasco. That's why he's still here, as the starter, with the Giants not desperate to draft just any QB.