Big Blue Huddle

This Friday evening at 8:00 PM the NFL Network will air their much-anticipated documentary on Wellington Mara

 "The Duke: The Giant Life of Wellington Mara"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/nfl-network-to-air-new-documentary-on-late-giants-owner-wellington-mara/ar-AA1sntSi

Should be very interesting.  Set the DVR

Friday, October 25 at 8:00 p.m. EDT.

Going right against game one of the World Series featuring a NYC team. Brilliant move NFL network.

I already have it set to record!

May I recommend each of us, before watching "The Duke," take a few minutes to read over Wellington Mara's page at the Pro Football Hall of Fame and, specifically, his Hall of Fame acceptance speech, so as to clearly understand, in his own reflection, where he stood in the history of the Football Giants. This is important in that he gives proper credit to the people who accomplished the NFL historical milestones mistakenly bestowed on him.

Wellington Mara - Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 1997

The reverence given him, to this very day, by those who knew him will be evident in this film.

I'm looking forward to it!

Peace!

I never understood why he's in the Hall of Fame or even why people think he was so wonderful. He was a terrible owner whose team sank to the bottom of the NFL, remained there for almost 20 years and became the laughingstock of the sports world. He never drafted an NFL worthy QB. His drafts from 1957 until co owner Tim forced him from involvement with player and team decisions were awful. He was not involved in building the Giants first 2 Super Bowl teams as George Young had full control. He and John had limited involvement in the second 2 victories.

Although he was co owner and vice president from a very young age, his father was "The Boss" until just before his death. Wellington was co owner and vice president on paper those years. This documentary was approved by John and the Giants, so I'm sure it's one-sided and not very truthful.

Anyone watch this last night?

I did and thought it was pretty good. For anyone who really didn't know about all the great things Wellington did just to help the NFL survive and prosper, must have learned a great deal.
Players loved him and while they did say he was a good talent evaluator, I think he missed more times than succeeded. 

I know it was a tribute to him, but they also failed to mention the feud he had with Tim and how that basically crippled the team for way too many years. They also failed to mention all those horrible drafts during the 60s and 70s, and some really horrible trades the Giants made that set the team back decades. They also failed to mention that if not for his appointed Commissioner Pete Rozelle basically insisting the Giants hire George Young, we might still be installed in those horrible years (OH wait, we are).

Overall, I enjoyed the show, knew most of the stuff about him and was good to see Jeremy Shockey again.

I just watched it reluctantly. The second half might have been a little more truthful than the first. His brother Jack represented the Giants after their father Tim died until his own death in 1965. Jack was the one that worked with the league to find and eventually hire Pete Rozelle, not Wellington. Jack was also the one that represented the Giants and worked with Rozelle to divide television revenue equally among all NFL teams, not Wellington. I need to look up which year it was, but Wellington was totally incompetent as the head of the player relations committee in the late 60's or early 70's, causing long delays in negotiations.

He didn't find Emlen Tunnel, Tunnel found the Giants. He wasn't involved with Bill Parcells teams and not much at all with Tom Coughlin teams. He didn't discover Tom Landry as a coach, Steve Owen and Jim Lee Howell did. George Young and Ray Perkins brought Bill Belichick to the Giants. They brought Parcells here too.

I'm so sick of seeing the interview with John saying his life would've been better if he was able to keep either Lombardi or Landry. Does anyone really believe either of them could've won with the players he supplied in 1965? 1966? 1967... Wellington wouldn't have given Landry a competent GM with full control and certainly not given Lombardi complete control of all GM duties.

I didn't find this creditable. For years, I've been saying Wellington and John have been erasing nephew Tim's name from their history, now John appears to be erasing Jack's name too.

Quote from: Giant Jim on October 26, 2024, 03:27:27 PMI just watched it reluctantly. The second half might have been a little more truthful than the first. His brother Jack represented the Giants after their father Tim died until his own death in 1965. Jack was the one that worked with the league to find and eventually hire Pete Rozelle, not Wellington. Jack was also the one that represented the Giants and worked with Rozelle to divide television revenue equally among all NFL teams, not Wellington. I need to look up which year it was, but Wellington was totally incompetent as the head of the player relations committee in the late 60's or early 70's, causing long delays in negotiations.

He didn't find Emlen Tunnel, Tunnel found the Giants. He wasn't involved with Bill Parcells teams and not much at all with Tom Coughlin teams. He didn't discover Tom Landry as a coach, Steve Owen and Jim Lee Howell did. George Young and Ray Perkins brought Bill Belichick to the Giants. They brought Parcells here too.

I'm so sick of seeing the interview with John saying his life would've been better if he was able to keep either Lombardi or Landry. Does anyone really believe either of them could've won with the players he supplied in 1965? 1966? 1967... Wellington wouldn't have given Landry a competent GM with full control and certainly not given Lombardi complete control of all GM duties.

I didn't find this creditable. For years, I've been saying Wellington and John have been erasing nephew Tim's name from their history, now John appears to be erasing Jack's name too.

Hello Jim.

You may have noticed some of my posts in leading up to the premiere of this documentary where I have tried to encourage all of us here to go and read Wellington Mara's Pro Football Hall of Fame Induction Acceptance Speech. In that speech, it is none other than "The Duke" himself who steps aside, when credit was given for the league successes due to the critical decisions which were made, to his father, Timothy, and especially his brother, Jack. In fact, he goes on to say that had he lived long enough, the first father/son tandem in the HoF would have been his father and Jack. So, let the record show that neither John nor anymore will change history as it played out.

That having been said, I was extremely disappointed at how lazy the people were who put this project together. Now granted, it was only an hour presentation, and the audience is not the "Historical Society of the Proper Accountability of Professional Football in the United States from the 1800s to the Present," mind you, but the casual fan who may or may not have known about the Giants' ownership legacy. As a result of reusing the same clips from other Giants-related media (NOTE: except the digital cleanup of the historical films was absolutely magnificent and added great credibility to the historical points covered), the "educated" Giants fans who lived the history, read the old books, newspapers and other periodicals of the day, or conversed with Giants brass in the past, all know the little details which, taken with the talking points of the story, do not quite add up to the conclusions the film presented; they "defaulted" to "The Duke" when they should have called out "Timothy Mara," or "Jack Mara" or, at a bare minimum, "The Maras."

The sad truth is that, in today's world, nobody outside the Mara family knows who Jack Mara was. There's little film on him and in it he never speaks. He was your typical back-office businessman working his tail off to manage the numbers, balance the budget and pray they come out in the black. There were several years they didn't. How that could have contributed to shortening his life, I do not know, but as for his son, Tim, and his mother and sister owning the business afterward, and the thoughts that John might be "writing them out of the script," well, we all know the confrontations between Tim Mara Jr. and Wellington and how they came to a head. I don't have to re-write history but, after Tim, his mom and sister sold their half to Preston Robert Tisch, Tim "retired" and went down to Florida. That's when his health started taking a turn for the worse. As he became close to the end of his life, Wellington reached out and, finally, both made peace from the past. It was just in time as, shortly after, Tim did pass. Again, I don't know John's position on the whole relationship with his father and Tim, but surely he knew that they both made peace and I would imagine, by extension, that peace was extended to John and Chris. So, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me as to why John would want to even rehash that entire soap opera on a program that's only an hour long. Now, if "The Duke" was done up like some of these other people, like Joe Montana and Tom Brady, for example, who have documentaries that are like six, one-hour episodes and all, then yes, you definitely want to discuss the Wellington-Tim fiasco during the 1970s. It was a theatrical trailer to the heart and soul of The Wilderness Years and it wasn't until the league had to poke its nose into the Mara family business before all of that could finally get resolved and progress finally moving in the right direction. Honestly, even though he passed recently, what would be even better is to get the rights to Dave Klein's book, "Giants Again," and get the accounts of the story from the horses' mouths and make an ESPN four-episode program similar to the 1977 Yankees "The Bronx is Burning" which would be perfect for the soap opera drama it eventually became.

Tell THAT to John Mara, along with all the $$$ the documentary would make, and he'll go back to "cha-ching, cha-ching, it's good to be the king" and OK it provided he signs off on the script. Fine John, but don't cut the juicy stuff which make the ratings go "Cha-ching" as you say!

The rest of the film was OK. It was good to see some NFL Film on The Duke I've personally never seen before. But I'll be fair and say, for the general audience, it more or less captured the essence of the old man.

I was talking the other day about NFL owners and reverence being paid by former players and all, and I made mention of Eddie DeBartolo from his days with the 49ers. So, wouldn't be appropriate that the final segment with Tiki and Jeremy Shockey, of all people, speak about the subject of reverence and Wellington Mara in the same sentence? Coming from Lawrence Taylor, yes, absolutely! Harry Carson, Phil McConkey, Phil Simms, Eli Manning, Michael Strahan, Parcells and Coughlin, of course! But it is a different type of reverence than the one that I spoke of with DeBartolo. With Eddie, he was a hard working man as well and young enough to where he could relate to his players and have a relationship with them. They knew that, they saw that in him, they loved him and they wanted to win for him. That was the impetus ... not really the money part where he spoiled them with insanely rich and famous lifestyle parties, vacations and get-togethers, but that he connected with them because he was trying to show his own dad that he was a capable businessman and could carry the company one day. Wellington Mara didn't have to do anything like that. As the documentary clearly stated, he was like royalty, the "The Duke of Wellington." His royalty was tied to the very fabric that was the foundation of the NFL itself. While the 49ers players could get along with Eddie as "one of the guys," make no mistake that once Giant players figured out who the old man was, sitting around the perimeter of the field watching them every day, they stood up at attention whenever he walked by, after that! Wellington didn't have to throw any parties. The fact that the players were representing the flagship franchise of the NFL, and were part of its long and storied history, is something unique and special that will change their lives forever if they can become a champion. But even if you play your heart out, win or lose, that old man would always come up to you after and tell you, "Good game today" and it did something to you. Of all plays to show, it would be the 1988 49ers-Giants Montana to Rice play against Mark Collins. It's been a play that's eaten at my heart and soul for years (NOTE: not anymore, thank God!). You get the 49ers flustered at 3rd and long, you move up to the line to try and bump Rice, you swing and miss, and now you're chasing him down, he catches the ball, you try to contain him, WHACK - Kenny Hill knocks the crap out of you and takes you out of the play, Jerry Rice high-steps it into the end-zone ... GAME OVER! You sit on the bench after everyone leaves. You shake your head and can't believe what happened. You are at your lowest point. The owner, of all people, comes up to you and tries to console you.

Let that be a firm example of the heart of the owner. Not an owner interested in "cha-ching," but an owner who cares about his own. The same owner whom it took a long time before he realized just how important the Giants fans really are. But he eventually got it. When he did, he was all the better because of it.

Sonny has a little growing up to do. He's not documentary material yet, by any means!

But, save for the little details, and the proper credit they are due, the documentary was OK. I enjoyed it but I know there's much, much more to the story and it goes well beyond Wellington. He'd be the first person to tell you that.

Peace!

Quote from: kartanoman on October 27, 2024, 05:09:54 AMHello Jim.

I don't think Jack belongs in the Hall of Fame, but that's not a slight against him. He picked up where his father left off representing the team, but he was only the "full" president of the team for about 7 years. He was never involved with building the on field team. This documentary credited some of his most important work to Wellington.

Other than George Martin and Harry Carson, Wellington didn't have much to do with the championship teams of the mid 80's and beyond. I knew nephew Tim wouldn't be mentioned, he's not in the Ring of Honor and deserves more credit than Wellington for the '86 & '90 super bowls.

It was a puff piece, and not nearly as bad as we make it out to be, so no need to get our Giants blue tighty-whiteys in a twist.

Cheers!

Quote from: kartanoman on October 27, 2024, 05:09:54 AMHello Jim.

You may have noticed some of my posts in leading up to the premiere of this documentary where I have tried to encourage all of us here to go and read Wellington Mara's Pro Football Hall of Fame Induction Acceptance Speech. In that speech, it is none other than "The Duke" himself who steps aside, when credit was given for the league successes due to the critical decisions which were made, to his father, Timothy, and especially his brother, Jack. In fact, he goes on to say that had he lived long enough, the first father/son tandem in the HoF would have been his father and Jack. So, let the record show that neither John nor anymore will change history as it played out.

That having been said, I was extremely disappointed at how lazy the people were who put this project together. Now granted, it was only an hour presentation, and the audience is not the "Historical Society of the Proper Accountability of Professional Football in the United States from the 1800s to the Present," mind you, but the casual fan who may or may not have known about the Giants' ownership legacy. As a result of reusing the same clips from other Giants-related media (NOTE: except the digital cleanup of the historical films was absolutely magnificent and added great credibility to the historical points covered), the "educated" Giants fans who lived the history, read the old books, newspapers and other periodicals of the day, or conversed with Giants brass in the past, all know the little details which, taken with the talking points of the story, do not quite add up to the conclusions the film presented; they "defaulted" to "The Duke" when they should have called out "Timothy Mara," or "Jack Mara" or, at a bare minimum, "The Maras."

The sad truth is that, in today's world, nobody outside the Mara family knows who Jack Mara was. There's little film on him and in it he never speaks. He was your typical back-office businessman working his tail off to manage the numbers, balance the budget and pray they come out in the black. There were several years they didn't. How that could have contributed to shortening his life, I do not know, but as for his son, Tim, and his mother and sister owning the business afterward, and the thoughts that John might be "writing them out of the script," well, we all know the confrontations between Tim Mara Jr. and Wellington and how they came to a head. I don't have to re-write history but, after Tim, his mom and sister sold their half to Preston Robert Tisch, Tim "retired" and went down to Florida. That's when his health started taking a turn for the worse. As he became close to the end of his life, Wellington reached out and, finally, both made peace from the past. It was just in time as, shortly after, Tim did pass. Again, I don't know John's position on the whole relationship with his father and Tim, but surely he knew that they both made peace and I would imagine, by extension, that peace was extended to John and Chris. So, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me as to why John would want to even rehash that entire soap opera on a program that's only an hour long. Now, if "The Duke" was done up like some of these other people, like Joe Montana and Tom Brady, for example, who have documentaries that are like six, one-hour episodes and all, then yes, you definitely want to discuss the Wellington-Tim fiasco during the 1970s. It was a theatrical trailer to the heart and soul of The Wilderness Years and it wasn't until the league had to poke its nose into the Mara family business before all of that could finally get resolved and progress finally moving in the right direction. Honestly, even though he passed recently, what would be even better is to get the rights to Dave Klein's book, "Giants Again," and get the accounts of the story from the horses' mouths and make an ESPN four-episode program similar to the 1977 Yankees "The Bronx is Burning" which would be perfect for the soap opera drama it eventually became.

Tell THAT to John Mara, along with all the $$$ the documentary would make, and he'll go back to "cha-ching, cha-ching, it's good to be the king" and OK it provided he signs off on the script. Fine John, but don't cut the juicy stuff which make the ratings go "Cha-ching" as you say!

The rest of the film was OK. It was good to see some NFL Film on The Duke I've personally never seen before. But I'll be fair and say, for the general audience, it more or less captured the essence of the old man.

I was talking the other day about NFL owners and reverence being paid by former players and all, and I made mention of Eddie DeBartolo from his days with the 49ers. So, wouldn't be appropriate that the final segment with Tiki and Jeremy Shockey, of all people, speak about the subject of reverence and Wellington Mara in the same sentence? Coming from Lawrence Taylor, yes, absolutely! Harry Carson, Phil McConkey, Phil Simms, Eli Manning, Michael Strahan, Parcells and Coughlin, of course! But it is a different type of reverence than the one that I spoke of with DeBartolo. With Eddie, he was a hard working man as well and young enough to where he could relate to his players and have a relationship with them. They knew that, they saw that in him, they loved him and they wanted to win for him. That was the impetus ... not really the money part where he spoiled them with insanely rich and famous lifestyle parties, vacations and get-togethers, but that he connected with them because he was trying to show his own dad that he was a capable businessman and could carry the company one day. Wellington Mara didn't have to do anything like that. As the documentary clearly stated, he was like royalty, the "The Duke of Wellington." His royalty was tied to the very fabric that was the foundation of the NFL itself. While the 49ers players could get along with Eddie as "one of the guys," make no mistake that once Giant players figured out who the old man was, sitting around the perimeter of the field watching them every day, they stood up at attention whenever he walked by, after that! Wellington didn't have to throw any parties. The fact that the players were representing the flagship franchise of the NFL, and were part of its long and storied history, is something unique and special that will change their lives forever if they can become a champion. But even if you play your heart out, win or lose, that old man would always come up to you after and tell you, "Good game today" and it did something to you. Of all plays to show, it would be the 1988 49ers-Giants Montana to Rice play against Mark Collins. It's been a play that's eaten at my heart and soul for years (NOTE: not anymore, thank God!). You get the 49ers flustered at 3rd and long, you move up to the line to try and bump Rice, you swing and miss, and now you're chasing him down, he catches the ball, you try to contain him, WHACK - Kenny Hill knocks the crap out of you and takes you out of the play, Jerry Rice high-steps it into the end-zone ... GAME OVER! You sit on the bench after everyone leaves. You shake your head and can't believe what happened. You are at your lowest point. The owner, of all people, comes up to you and tries to console you.

Let that be a firm example of the heart of the owner. Not an owner interested in "cha-ching," but an owner who cares about his own. The same owner whom it took a long time before he realized just how important the Giants fans really are. But he eventually got it. When he did, he was all the better because of it.

Sonny has a little growing up to do. He's not documentary material yet, by any means!

But, save for the little details, and the proper credit they are due, the documentary was OK. I enjoyed it but I know there's much, much more to the story and it goes well beyond Wellington. He'd be the first person to tell you that.

Peace!

Chris

I always enjoy your write ups and your thoughts on anything Giants history.

It
s just MY opinion that the league stepped in to try and mediate the 'problems' between Wellington and Tim Jr maybe,  because, Wellington meant so much to Rozzelle and the NFL> Would Rozzelle have done that, or the league have done that if it were Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburg that was in Wilderness years and just not winning? I think the respect that the NFL had for Wellington and the NY franchise made them try and resolve the feud. Had the owners of say detroit been feuding the same way, would the NFL have stepped in?
Regardless of who was behind this or that, Wellington WAS a well-respected figure in NFL circles and still the architect behind the revenue-sharing plan, or maybe just the guy who pushed it to the league. That alone made him a huge figure to all football fans to this day.

Quote from: LennG on October 27, 2024, 01:51:05 PMChris

I always enjoy your write ups and your thoughts on anything Giants history.

It
s just MY opinion that the league stepped in to try and mediate the 'problems' between Wellington and Tim Jr maybe,  because, Wellington meant so much to Rozzelle and the NFL> Would Rozzelle have done that, or the league have done that if it were Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburg that was in Wilderness years and just not winning? I think the respect that the NFL had for Wellington and the NY franchise made them try and resolve the feud. Had the owners of say detroit been feuding the same way, would the NFL have stepped in?
Regardless of who was behind this or that, Wellington WAS a well-respected figure in NFL circles and still the architect behind the revenue-sharing plan, or maybe just the guy who pushed it to the league. That alone made him a huge figure to all football fans to this day.

Don't forget, Tim's father Jack pushed for Rozelle to become commissioner.  One day I will post detailed info on the feud and it's resolution, but trying to stick with the topic, I'll keep it short.

Neither Tim nor Jack got involved with the football side of the business. Tim didn't like what he was seeing from Wellington's side during the Alex Webster years and pushed him a little to hire a GM. Wellington wasn't letting Andy Robustelli run the team on his own and around 1975, Tim asked Rozelle to get involved with several matters. Rozelle refused. With the team in shambles with no coach or GM in February 1979, Art Modell and Art Rooney persuaded Rozelle to get involved. The bad teams in NY were hurting the NFL for getting more television money. The final agreement from Rozelle's mediation was that Wellington would allow the next GM (and he would have that title) run without Wellington's interference. Rozelle, a former PR man, released statements that wouldn't embarrass either owner.

Rozelle settled a dispute between the owners. He did not tell them who to hire, he suggested names AFTER they settled the other issues.

Quote from: Giant Jim on October 27, 2024, 02:27:53 PMDon't forget, Tim's father Jack pushed for Rozelle to become commissioner.  One day I will post detailed info on the feud and it's resolution, but trying to stick with the topic, I'll keep it short.

Neither Tim nor Jack got involved with the football side of the business. Tim didn't like what he was seeing from Wellington's side during the Alex Webster years and pushed him a little to hire a GM. Wellington wasn't letting Andy Robustelli run the team on his own and around 1975, Tim asked Rozelle to get involved with several matters. Rozelle refused. With the team in shambles with no coach or GM in February 1979, Art Modell and Art Rooney persuaded Rozelle to get involved. The bad teams in NY were hurting the NFL for getting more television money. The final agreement from Rozelle's mediation was that Wellington would allow the next GM (and he would have that title) run without Wellington's interference. Rozelle, a former PR man, released statements that wouldn't embarrass either owner.

Rozelle settled a dispute between the owners. He did not tell them who to hire, he suggested names AFTER they settled the other issues.

Hi Jim.

Did you ever break bread with Dave Klein during the 70s and 80s? My father ran around in in his circles and subscribed to his rag, "The Giants Newsweekly," was part of the Giants "Touchdown Club" and, as a former Yankee Stadium season ticket holder, had first dibs at Giants Stadium when it opened in 1976. He knew the story inside out, used to meet the coaches and chat with Klein during special get-togethers and was even a member of the Pat Hughes Fan Club. So I know he was dialed into the inside stuff as it was going down at the time. It's too bad he's been gone nine years now or I'd have asked him more about what he was hearing at the time.

But make no mistake, he was a frustrated fan like the rest of us. I was too young to have the anger at Wellington. Tim was the fan's choice because his fight with Wellington helped elevate the "problem" with the Giants all the way up to league offices. "The Fumble" ensured that changes would result to deal with those problems. That's kind of in a nutshell the Cliffs Notes version of how it went down.

In the final analysis, the fight also did one more thing. From the moment Bob Tisch owned the Giants, never again would a football organization's ownership hold an equal partnership; there will always be one party designated the controlling interest. They should have called that the "Mara Rule."

Peace!