Billy Martin in the HOF??

[Webster29]

It's funny but being a Yankee fan I never gave that much thought.  Billy just never crossed my mind when thinking about HOF candidates.  Perhaps I have always thought of him as a player first and manager second.  But there is a new book out by Bill Pennington titled "Billy Martin:Baseball's Flawed Genius" that makes a pretty good case.  As a manager his .553 winning percentage is better then 13 of the 22  managers in the HOF. Pennington also points out that this was before the wild card.  Six more of his 16 teams would have made the playoffs if there was a wild card.  Every team he took over got significantly better in his first year.  The Twins, Tigers, Rangers, A's and Yankees all improved that first year.   Now I have not read the book yet.   There was a pretty good review in the Buffalo News last week by one of their sports writers, Jerry Sullivan.  But I do plan on reading it sometime this summer. 

Anyway, what say you baseball fans out there.  Good idea, stupid idea, will never happen???

[jimv]

just off the top of my head, Bill: NO.

[LennG]

Bill

If we go purely stats, maybe, but Billy was a loose cannon and if memory holds, he wasn't a huge fan of the press.

Maybe he deserves, but so does Gil Hodges, and Gil the more so.

[Webster29]

Jim:   could you elaborate on your "no".    Is it you don't feel his record on the field warrants HOF status or was it his personal conduct?    Or both??    Billy certainly wasn't what anyone would consider a model citizen. And by the way if it is a personal dislike for him I don't have a problem with that.   There are many players who due to their behavior off the field I would not like to see in the HOF.   Also I am not advocating that he be in the HOF.  The book touched on some interesting facts that in my opinion thought it should be discussed.

Lenn:   when you bring up Gil Hodges are you comparing his playing record against Billy's manager record???   Hodges was a much better player but Billy the better manager.   Also I agree with you completely that Gil belongs in the hall.   

[jimv]

Not only, IMO, was he not that great in the field but his antics as both a player & manager completely turned me off.  Perhaps if I had been a Yankee fan, I'd be more receptive to the idea.

[Webster29]

Jim:  your comment about being more receptive if you were a Yankee fan is probably right on.   Over the years I have found that Yankee fans, myself included, for the most part loved Billy.  And I have always thought that this love came from the way he played and managed the game, with fire, hustle and desire.  And the fact that he was so often ad odds with George.   If I remember back then many Yankee fans considered George an embarrassment for the Yankees and baseball.   All the stupid (in our opinion anyway) moves and the way he treated people reminds me today of Daniel Snyder.  But anyway, I am looking forward to reading this book.  I understand it goes in great depth dealing with Billy's off the field problems and I am hoping it will shed a little light on the man and what he was really like.

[LennG]

Bill

Now this is from one guy who is way out in front when it comes to hating EVERYTHING Yankees. I just detest them from when I was a kid, still, thru out my life, right to the present day.
That said, I always liked

certain players on that team and Billy was one of them. Not as a player, I hated him there, but as a manager, he was my type of guy. I loved the type of ball he played, 'Billy ball', loved his fieriness and his confrontations with George. Over all, he was an Ass***e. but a likeable one for me. maybe it was just his defiance of authority in George, or even his confrontation with Reggie, but I would have hired him to manage my team.

A little bit like Durocher. When he was with the enemy, we hated him, when he was with the dodgers, we loved him.

[Giant Obsession]

Gil Hodges and Billy Martin...BOTH should be there.  Both no brainers.  But how much credence can you give these HOF's in football and baseball when "sportswriters" control it.

[Webster29]

I finally got around to reading Pennington's book.   Just finished it.   And absolutely loved it.   You don't have to be a Yankee fan.   If you love baseball you will love this book.

[bighitterdalama]

Billy Martin to the Hall of Fame? A big and resounding YES!

I became a member of SABR (The Society for Baseball Research) about 25 years ago. This was long before the internet came into vogue; I had to mail in a membership with a check. I would get a newsletter and they would solicit input by the membership. I had/have perhaps 200 plus books on baseball and would send them information from time to time. It was great fun, but I have not been an active member for quite a while.

I remember a SABR article written in the early 1990s regarding a manager's affect on game outcome per season. Using some type of SABR metrics, the study determined that Billy Martin's managing a team resulted in a plus/minus of 6.5 games per season. The next highest was about 5.2 games (I believe it might have been John McGraw), with all other top ten managers falling no better than plus/minus of around 4.5.

The article I read is long since lost to my ability to pull it back into this discussion. Perhaps this issue has been re-addressed by SABR; I have not had the time to stay with that organization and have become bored with its increasingly designed nonsensical minutae. That said, the Billy Martin managerial plus/minus is a very telling point. Many managers who are in the Hall of Fame have a much lower plus/minus.

As far as excluding Billy due to personal issues, consider the following. Billy Martin's mother was a prostitute; his father a seaman whom he never knew. He was raised by his grandmother, who ran a whorehouse in San Francisco, and where Billy lived a child. Still, as an adult, no matter what happened the night before, Billy went to Mass each and every day. Billy might not have been the greatest person of all time, but it wasn't for a lack of trying. A difficult personality, I hope that he is now happy.

Big Hitter

   

[Webster29]

Thanks Brian.    That was interesting.