Second Round of the Draft

[Bob In PA]

We have pretty well worn out discussion of the first round of the draft, and maybe you've grown tired of talking about the draft as a whole, but if not.....

There's been a lot in the media and on this site about the importance and results in the second round.

Assume the Giants' choice in the 2nd round was between replacing Big Hank and bolstering the offensive line. 

Did they make the right decision, considering the players who were there at the time of the pick?

Bob

PS. My answer: They made the correct choice, both in the abstract and considering the players who they could have chosen. I liked both Tomlinson and Dawkins (as a tackle or guard) a lot, so that consideration was a "tie" IMO  The deciding factors were (a) defense wins championships; (b) stopping the run is a top-three objective in every game plan; and (c) I don't believe any offensive lineman who remained on the board, as a first year player, would have helped the team more than experienced players (no matter what you think of them) Hart, Flowers and Fluker.

[MightyGiants]

Bob,

I would suggest that the 2nd round ties to the third.   What the Giants did with their 2nd and 3rd pick was get a solid replacement for Hankins and a QB to groom as Eli's replacement.

Now based on availability they could have also gone

2nd round-  OT/OG Dion Dawkins (a player who I feel can start this year and can play every position but center)
3rd round-  DT    Vanderdoes, Eddie (who never seemed to recover from major injuries and was out of shape) or DT    Adams, Montravius (who scouts questioned if he plays hard all the time)

So in hindsight does the team go (like they did) safer Hankins replacement and potential future starting QB  OR do they go offensive line improvement and riskier Hankins improvement and no QB to groom for the future

That is how I see the fork in the road playing out

[Bob In PA]

I like that thinking and suggest that anyone else who wants to weigh in consider Rich's reply as part of the original post.

[Philosophers]

If a later drafted DT like Ryan Glasgow becomes very good, then yes, he made a mistake, but as of now, no

[MP21WAYS2PAY]

I think the 2nd round pick was really the pivotal pick of the draft.  It was no surprise that the Giants picked a DT in the second round, it was certainly our most glaring need, but I think it was a mistake taking Tomlinson there.  Most people on the board appear to love the DT (Dalvin Tomlinson) pick as discussed in an earlier post, but to me he is going to have minimal game impact beyond, at best, holding the line of scrimmage, which is something any of the available free agents Jared Odrick, Jaye Howard, Dan Williams, Sen'Derrick Marks etc. could have provided. 

My main issue with DT is, yes great personality, great wrestling background, but I just don't see any quickness or penetration off the line, I don't see his strength impacting the game at the next level.

Reportedly the Giants went off Zac Cunningham after his interviews, so thats fine, but if not a linebacker I would have preferred Moton or Dawkins to bolster the run game, or DEs Jordan Willis or Basham, to generate pass rush. 

I think the ideal scenario was going TE, OL/DE, Big RB (Foreman or Perine)/CB.  For DT we would have been better off taking a DT later in the fourth round, and adding some veteran depth.

I was fine with the QB in the 3rd, if they really like him, and its not just to have a body, but DT at 2 and then a QB at 3 really limited the impact of this draft for me.  We had the opportunity to bolster a power run game, or add needed pass rushing or corner depth, and really did not accomplish that.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I didn't research DT's like I did many other positions (in particular, OT's, TE.s and QB's) so when the pick came in, I was neither excited or unhappy. I went to work finding out all I could. What I discovered is an incredible talent built on a foundation of being a  three-time "state heavyweight wrestling champion" (that takes a combination of strength, agility, lightning quickness, and mental perseverance) as well as a goalie in soccer (requires great reflexes and the ability to move laterally or vertically in a heart-beating nano-second). Then I saw that he turned down a free ride at Harvard (who does that?). Found out he's a powerful run stopper who can play the 1 or 3-tech position and had limited sacks due to getting constant double teams which in turn allowed Jonathan Allen to shine, not to mention he played defensive end on the strong side on occasion. In fact, the other guys on the d-line said they couldn't have had the year they had if not for Dalvin, who required zero glory for doing the dirty work. And then reading his life story made me realize this guy is super intelligent, very humble, and has incredibly high character...and of course, we had a hole in the defensive line after big Hank left us. I felt we got a steal here. Love the pick and love the guy.

[beaugestus]

Jolly, he will be playing next to the ultimate blocker eater in the league in Snacks. While the guy to the right of him is not too shabby either.

[jimv]

I agree with your choice completely, Bob.   And, I agree with your joining it with pick # 3, Rich.

[Bob In PA]

I think the 2nd round pick was really the pivotal pick of the draft.  It was no surprise that the Giants picked a DT in the second round, it was certainly our most glaring need, but I think it was a mistake taking Tomlinson there.  Most people on the board appear to love the DT (Dalvin Tomlinson) pick as discussed in an earlier post, but to me he is going to have minimal game impact beyond, at best, holding the line of scrimmage, which is something any of the available free agents Jared Odrick, Jaye Howard, Dan Williams, Sen'Derrick Marks etc. could have provided.

My main issue with DT is, yes great personality, great wrestling background, but I just don't see any quickness or penetration off the line, I don't see his strength impacting the game at the next level.

Reportedly the Giants went off Zac Cunningham after his interviews, so thats fine, but if not a linebacker I would have preferred Moton or Dawkins to bolster the run game, or DEs Jordan Willis or Basham, to generate pass rush. 

I think the ideal scenario was going TE, OL/DE, Big RB (Foreman or Perine)/CB.  For DT we would have been better off taking a DT later in the fourth round, and adding some veteran depth.

I was fine with the QB in the 3rd, if they really like him, and its not just to have a body, but DT at 2 and then a QB at 3 really limited the impact of this draft for me.  We had the opportunity to bolster a power run game, or add needed pass rushing or corner depth, and really did not accomplish that.

MP: Your original post and Rich's reply to it were the impetuses for this thread.  Thanks.

No one probably wants to hear this, but my answer to "why a defensive end" is this....  they may have worked backward from the fact that they really liked and wanted to put Tomlinson on their football team, and the fact is that DT was an area of need and there is no doubt Tomlinson deserved to go in about the 2nd round, so they took him.  He's the kind of player they like, and they need one of what he was selling.  The simple explanation will probably anger some (maybe you) but I'd bet that's the answer.  He'll be easy to root for, he's a winner, he played for a coach pro personnel departments believe in, and who knows, the Giant may have even gotten an "insider's" perspective about the kid from Landon Collins.

Nice post, by the way.  It could have happened just as you suggested, IMO, if the picks ahead of the Giants had gone differently.

Bob

[UKGiantsFan]

Most people on the board appear to love the DT (Dalvin Tomlinson) pick as discussed in an earlier post, but to me he is going to have minimal game impact beyond, at best, holding the line of scrimmage, which is something any of the available free agents Jared Odrick, Jaye Howard, Dan Williams, Sen'Derrick Marks etc. could have provided. 

Odrick isn't a line of scrimmage holder and had a shoulder injury last year; Howard was put on IR last year with a hip injury and missed 9 games; Williams was cut by the Raiders who considered him a liability and only let him play on 35.3% of snaps; Marks hasn't been any good since he blew out a knee a couple of years ago and was only a backup in Jacksonville last year.

I get you don't like the pick but  you're grasping at straws throwing out the names of players who are firmly on the downside of their careers. 31 teams don't consider them a priority signing, the other one cut them!

[Bob In PA]

I didn't research DT's like I did many other positions (in particular, OT's, TE.s and QB's) so when the pick came in, I was neither excited or unhappy. I went to work finding out all I could. What I discovered is an incredible talent built on a foundation of being a  three-time "state heavyweight wrestling champion" (that takes a combination of strength, agility, lightning quickness, and mental perseverance) as well as a goalie in soccer (requires great reflexes and the ability to move laterally or vertically in a heart-beating nano-second). Then I saw that he turned down a free ride at Harvard (who does that?). Found out he's a powerful run stopper who can play the 1 or 3-tech position and had limited sacks due to getting constant double teams which in turn allowed Jonathan Allen to shine, not to mention he played defensive end on the strong side on occasion. In fact, the other guys on the d-line said they couldn't have had the year they had if not for Dalvin, who required zero glory for doing the dirty work. And then reading his life story made me realize this guy is super intelligent, very humble, and has incredibly high character...and of course, we had a hole in the defensive line after big Hank left us. I felt we got a steal here. Love the pick and love the guy.

JBG:  Yeah, his experience and personal story are top-notch. 

When the Giants get a guy like Tomlinson, I pray for his success because there's no way I'm ever going to root against him (until they cut him after his rookie contract expires LOL). 

Yeah, he's a zero-glory guy.... good thing he went to a team whose fans appreciate and understand the importance of zero-glory guys.   

Bob

[Bob In PA]

Odrick isn't a line of scrimmage holder and had a shoulder injury last year; Howard was put on IR last year with a hip injury and missed 9 games; Williams was cut by the Raiders who considered him a liability and only let him play on 35.3% of snaps; Marks hasn't been any good since he blew out a knee a couple of years ago and was only a backup in Jacksonville last year.

I get you don't like the pick but  you're grasping at straws throwing out the names of players who are firmly on the downside of their careers. 31 teams don't consider them a priority signing, the other one cut them!

ceri: How about the "other half" of MP's point, that Tomlinson isn't the type of knifing or penetrating presence Spags wants next to Snacks?  That has been raised by some of the "experts and gurus" and although you and I agree about Tomlinson, I was wondering if you saw anything in his film that would lead you to believe there is a dimension to Tomlinson's game that would allow him to stay on the field in passing situations.  Bob

[UKGiantsFan]

ceri: How about the "other half" of MP's point, that Tomlinson isn't the type of knifing or penetrating presence Spags wants next to Snacks?  That has been raised by some of the "experts and gurus" and although you and I agree about Tomlinson, I was wondering if you saw anything in his film that would lead you to believe there is a dimension to Tomlinson's game that would allow him to stay on the field in passing situations.  Bob

Actually I think they wanted two run pluggers in the middle just like last year as by taking up blockers they allow the likes of Landon Collins to have a free role and hide our deficiencies at LB. Penetrating players would change the way we play defense. I like the way it was played just fine!

[Jolly Blue Giant]

ceri: How about the "other half" of MP's point, that Tomlinson isn't the type of knifing or penetrating presence Spags wants next to Snacks?  That has been raised by some of the "experts and gurus" and although you and I agree about Tomlinson, I was wondering if you saw anything in his film that would lead you to believe there is a dimension to Tomlinson's game that would allow him to stay on the field in passing situations.  Bob

I know this was addressed to Ceri, but I'd still like to take a shot at it.

Tomlinson spent his senior year at Alabama getting double teamed and he still got some sacks. There is no way they can double team him on the Giants line. They already do that to Snacks and have their hands full with JPP on one side and OV on the other. The guy who will draw the least amount of attention on that line is the new kid. I suspect he's finally going to get to manhandle single coverage and get into the backfield. Having that wrestling background makes him already inclined to use an opponents weight and strength against themselves. I think he'll have a heyday because Snacks will be getting what he got in college so that others get single coverage.

This is going to be one nasty defensive line. I doubt your going to see many RB's go up the middle - that's if they even bother trying. We got a serious wall on that side the trench

[BayAreaGiant]

One of the things that does not seem to be mentioned is that the reason DT (2nd) and DE (5th) were needed in this draft is that two more of Reese's high picks Bromley and OO failed to live up to expectations. As a result, they are constantly trying to fill holes that should have been filled with previously drafted players. Until Reese starts to have a higher success rate with 1-3 round players, they will continue to need to spend draft picks on certain positions that could be better spent on the OL and LB.