The Polarization of America - and it's dangers

[Jolly Blue Giant]

The polarization in this country seems to get worse and worse by the day. So much hostility and hatred towards those who don't share their rigid and demanding opinions. Overly sensitive people who fail to grasp a bigger picture are so wrapped up in their points of view that they've shut down open thought and constructive debate. It's worrisome. I listened to a pundit the other day who made a lot of sense. Basically she said there is an intrinsic need for religion in people's lives (even if they don't know it), but because traditional religion has been deteriorating at such a rapid pace, a hole is left in people. Churches are shutting down or attendance so low that chapels are mostly empty on Sunday mornings, etc. Partly to blame because of scandals galore, but also because of a level of comfort to people in this day of technology and easy living. But because there is an innate need in people to have religion, the "hole in their soul" gets filled with a new type of religion to a very large audience: "politics". Those who have shunned traditional religion in favor of the "new" (yet ancient) religion of separating people into groups similar to caste systems of old, have the same fervor as the most religious zealot. Hatred abounds between castes for whatever reason (mostly low IQ IMO, but I digress). Regardless, it seems this once great country is becoming polarized to the point that people utterly despise and hate others simply because they don't share the beliefs of their political group of choice. Political pundits have become "evangelists" and "fire and brimstone preachers". Colleges and Universities have become the new churches of choice and are filled with religious zealots ready to spread the good word and will go to any length to convert "non-believers" including rioting, shaming, and open humiliation. The embers of hatred have been spread across the land and fanned into deadly flames. Welcome to our new America.

Read a great article from a woman (Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a research fellow at Stanford University

[Bob In PA]

Jolly: Nice post.  I agree polarization is bad. I try to keep that issue at the forefront of my reasoning and think twice, and take care what I write and how I say it.

I believe and hope I'm doing my best. However, I don't think worrying about polarization should cut off or deter discussion of contentious issues. 

Otherwise, we would be essentially each by "cancelling" ourselves. I think that is also bad. 

Bob

[MightyGiants]

JBG,

It's sort of interesting, that you rightfully are concerned with polarization yet in your talk about polarization you painted colleges and universities as the villains causing the polarization. 


Do you think it's possible that such finger-pointing is part of what is creating the polarization? 

As for the theory you put forth about people's need for religion, what role do you think the Evengicical movement that freely mixes religion and politics might play in this nation's increasing polarization. 

[jimmyz]

JBG,

Society has always had it share of angry scoldy people who mean to shun and shame the populace into conformity.  Conventional norms are driven by the media now.  Used to be some other people who held that job.  Society hasn't changed.  The people who slide into those roles haven't changed.  They just have new job titles.

[MightyGiants]

I also think that you can't have a discussion about the polarization of American without addressing the elephant in the room-  Donald Trump

Look until Donald Trump both sides of the aisle were pretty good at at least paying lip service to unity and certainly both sides of the aisle kept the dignity of our nation's highest office by not engaging in childish name-calling and insult.  This is true of Republicans like Reagan and Bush 1 and 2.  This is true of Democrats like Carter, Clinton, or Obama.   

With Trump, you had a man who actively encouraged polarization both in words and deeds.  His deeds and behavior were factually different than other Presidents, Republican or Democratic, and I think most would agree (even if unwilling to admi) that those unusual actions contributed to the problem we see today. 

Of course, the deeper issue, is why did so many Americans support or endorse that sort of behavior from our President?

[Jolly Blue Giant]

JBG,

It's sort of interesting, that you rightfully are concerned with polarization yet in your talk about polarization you painted colleges and universities as the villains causing the polarization.

Well, to qualify my opinion let me give you my background. I didn't go to college out of high school and instead completed a 5-year tool and die apprenticeship. I didn't like the trade so I decided to go back to school in my 20's to approach life on a different career path. Two years later I graduated from community college in math/statistics (cum laude BTW). I then transferred to SUNY Cortland for three and a half years, the first year as a math major/computer programmer minor before switching to a history major, since that was where my real interests lied. From there I transferred and graduated from Binghamton University (also at the top of my class - for which means little, I know). From there I continued graduate studies at Syracuse University and maintained a 4.0 (again, irrelevant, but just pointing out I took my studies seriously and didn't go to college to have fun). Because my constant transferring to different colleges and changing majors, it took me more than two decades to get the education I sought. The point is, I've spent way too much of my life going to school and have sat at the feet of Marxist Evangelists for over 20 years. I have been scorned by professors for speaking up until I finally just shut up in order to get through the damn classes and get my sheepskin. I can tell you from first hand experience that many professors wear Marxism on their lapels with great pride and they can turn any subject into the wonders of Marxism and the evils of capitalism. The idea that any type of conservatism or Christian ethics came through the lips of a professor is borderline crazy. In my experience, they openly mocked Judaeo-Christianity values and ridiculed their adherents. Hence the reason I was a math and statistics major early on was it was a way to avoid having Marxism driven down my throat hour after hour, day after day. For a kid born in the 50's, raised on a farm and went to church every Sunday, it's a harrowing experience to discover everything you ever believed about hard work, personal responsibility, and love of country to be silly and dead wrong.

Do you think it's possible that such finger-pointing is part of what is creating the polarization?

I don't think I was "finger pointing" as much as pointing out how polarized this country has become and the increasing hostility I've personally noticed in the past few years. Some of the things I've seen or heard about activists trying to get their own way is vile and absurd. I am not pointing my finger at you or anyone on this board. I just think the polarization is going to lead to an ugly ending and it doesn't bode well for humanity and America in general - that is just my opinion.[/quote]

As for the theory you put forth about people's need for religion, what role do you think the Evengicical movement that freely mixes religion and politics might play in this nation's increasing polarization.

Actually, it wasn't my theory, it was that of a woman psychiatrist on the radio who stated that people's innate need for religion have turned to politics as their religion, but that doesn't matter. I don't know what evangelical churches you go to in order to state that they mix religion and politics because that certainly never happens in churches I've attended - and I'm sure you would categorize them as "evangelical" (which I'd kind of like to hear you definition of "evangelical" and your personal experiences at those churches - not regurgitated crap written by anti-Christian activists). The churches I attended never talked about politics, but they did talk about a lot of things that liberals would scorn or simply laugh off: the sanctity of life, the sanctity of marriage, honesty, compassion, personal responsibility, helping others, love of neighbor, etc., which flies in the face of today's modern society and is fodder for jokes at schools of "higher" learning (based on my personal experience). As far as people who attend church and why they also tend to adhere to the messages like I just posted, it is their nature to vote against policies that are polar opposite of their beliefs. I actually asked a pastor one time why he never discussed politics or endorsed a politician and he simply said, "there is no place for politics here". That's been my experience in every church I've ever attended.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I also think that you can't have a discussion about the polarization of American without addressing the elephant in the room-  Donald Trump

Look until Donald Trump both sides of the aisle were pretty good at at least paying lip service to unity and certainly both sides of the aisle kept the dignity of our nation's highest office by not engaging in childish name-calling and insult.  This is true of Republicans like Reagan and Bush 1 and 2.  This is true of Democrats like Carter, Clinton, or Obama.   

With Trump, you had a man who actively encouraged polarization both in words and deeds.  His deeds and behavior were factually different than other Presidents, Republican or Democratic, and I think most would agree (even if unwilling to admi) that those unusual actions contributed to the problem we see today. 

Of course, the deeper issue, is why did so many Americans support or endorse that sort of behavior from our President?

The sheer hatred of Trump is an enigma to me. Before running for president, he was adored across the land by both left and right. I remember watching a PBS documentary on the great ones who built this country. It focused on the Roosevelts, Vanderbilts, Edisons, Fords, etc., and they used interviews with Trump and other successful businessmen who offered their opinions on what drove them. There was no mockery when Trump spoke, but a sort of reverence.

I also remember Oprah having Trump on as a guest and she fawned over him. They got into politics a little and she asked him if he ever considered getting into politics and told him he'd make a great mayor of NYC or governor. He told her that he wasn't political, but he thought that if the country was really heading in the wrong direction, he'd think about it. For which she praised him and encouraged him to do so.

Interestingly, the moment Trump announced his candidacy, the same people who fawned over him immediately flipped to hatred that is normally displayed by out of balance people who should seek medical help.

I've always been amazed at how quickly people come out of the shadows and show a hatred that is hard to believe. I'm sure the media didn't help by portraying him in every negative light they could conjure up. I honestly don't know what it is about Trump that brought out such sheer hatred. I've been interested in politics my whole life and was radically against some policies thrown at us from Presidents and other heavy hitting politicians, but I never stooped to hating anyone. As I was taught from birth, "hatred destroys the vessel that contains it" which is so true. I've seen people hate someone and the target of their hatred either 1) doesn't care or 2) laughs about it because of the damage it does to the person who hates. I've never seen hatred hurt anyone other than the person who has it. It makes them irrational and unable to think clearly about things that are actually important. Time spent hating is just erasing quality time from one's life.

Regardless, the hatred of Trump is confounding. I understand that he lacked the typical political demeanor of polished politicians who can speak in circles, say nothing of substance, while making calming and likeable facial expressions that say "trust me" - and people do trust them for some reason that is beyond me. Trump obviously lacked the decorum of people who have spent their lives in politics honing their skills at "style" whilst being careful to say nothing of "substance". To me, I'll always take substance over style, but for politicians seeking love - it's all about style over substance and being able to wordsmith in such a way as to insinuate he or she will be good for you without committing to anything. It's a game that is perfected by snake oil salesmen and politicians. That's where Trump failed gallantly. He came out and said what he thought and meant what he said - even if it wasn't popular (you never had to wonder what he thought). He then attempted to fight for what he promised against a deeply sated political body who doesn't like their cushy little personal world shaken up.

[Bob In PA]

Interestingly, the moment Trump announced his candidacy, the same people who fawned over him immediately flipped to hatred that is normally displayed by out of balance people who should seek medical help.

Jolly: Interesting? I guess. Unexpected? Hardly. Today "Darth Vader's" daughter (Liz Cheney) is a media hero. How long will that last (rhetorical)? She stands FOR everything the Democrats hate (except Trump). Bob

[MightyGiants]

The sheer hatred of Trump is an enigma to me. Before running for president, he was adored across the land by both left and right. I remember watching a PBS documentary on the great ones who built this country. It focused on the Roosevelts, Vanderbilts, Edisons, Fords, etc., and they used interviews with Trump and other successful businessmen who offered their opinions on what drove them. There was no mockery when Trump spoke, but a sort of reverence.

I also remember Oprah having Trump on as a guest and she fawned over him. They got into politics a little and she asked him if he ever considered getting into politics and told him he'd make a great mayor of NYC or governor. He told her that he wasn't political, but he thought that if the country was really heading in the wrong direction, he'd think about it. For which she praised him and encouraged him to do so.

Interestingly, the moment Trump announced his candidacy, the same people who fawned over him immediately flipped to hatred that is normally displayed by out of balance people who should seek medical help.

I've always been amazed at how quickly people come out of the shadows and show a hatred that is hard to believe. I'm sure the media didn't help by portraying him in every negative light they could conjure up. I honestly don't know what it is about Trump that brought out such sheer hatred. I've been interested in politics my whole life and was radically against some policies thrown at us from Presidents and other heavy hitting politicians, but I never stooped to hating anyone. As I was taught from birth, "hatred destroys the vessel that contains it" which is so true. I've seen people hate someone and the target of their hatred either 1) doesn't care or 2) laughs about it because of the damage it does to the person who hates. I've never seen hatred hurt anyone other than the person who has it. It makes them irrational and unable to think clearly about things that are actually important. Time spent hating is just erasing quality time from one's life.

Regardless, the hatred of Trump is confounding. I understand that he lacked the typical political demeanor of polished politicians who can speak in circles, say nothing of substance, while making calming and likeable facial expressions that say "trust me" - and people do trust them for some reason that is beyond me. Trump obviously lacked the decorum of people who have spent their lives in politics honing their skills at "style" whilst being careful to say nothing of "substance". To me, I'll always take substance over style, but for politicians seeking love - it's all about style over substance and being able to wordsmith in such a way as to insinuate he or she will be good for you without committing to anything. It's a game that is perfected by snake oil salesmen and politicians. That's where Trump failed gallantly. He came out and said what he thought and meant what he said - even if it wasn't popular (you never had to wonder what he thought). He then attempted to fight for what he promised against a deeply sated political body who doesn't like their cushy little personal world shaken up.

JBG,

Why do you assume that those who expectations of a certain level of behavior from our President must hate him?   Has it ever occurred to you that by making that assumption you are literally shutting the door on any and all criticism no matter how valid?

If you want to end this polarization, one of the things you need to do is LISTEN to others especially those you don't agree with.   When you decide that anyone who doesn't support Donald Trump is impaired by "sheer hatred" you have eliminated any and all possibilities of any sort of productive discussion.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

JBG,

Why do you assume that those who expectations of a certain level of behavior from our President must hate him?   Has it ever occurred to you that by making that assumption you are literally shutting the door on any and all criticism no matter how valid?

If you want to end this polarization, one of the things you need to do is LISTEN to others especially those you don't agree with.   When you decide that anyone who doesn't support Donald Trump is impaired by "sheer hatred" you have eliminated any and all possibilities of any sort of productive discussion.

Okay, I'll bite. Why do you hate him so much? Why does the media and people like Oprah (both sources adored him and fawned over him for decades) have a seething hatred for him? Was it because he put America first? Was it because he made America energy independent for the first time in over 70 years dropping gas prices to historical lows? Was it because he was the first president in 50 years who didn't get us involved in a new war? Was it because he neutralized the constant nemesis responsible for untold death and destruction for 8 years (ISIS)? Was it because he got rid of the world

[jimmyz]

Trump was the hate magnet that exposed the media for its obvious bias.  You dont have to like Trump to see that. 

[MightyGiants]

Okay, I'll bite. Why do you hate him so much? Why does the media and people like Oprah (both sources adored him and fawned over him for decades) have a seething hatred for him? Was it because he put America first? Was it because he made America energy independent for the first time in over 70 years dropping gas prices to historical lows? Was it because he was the first president in 50 years who didn't get us involved in a new war? Was it because he neutralized the constant nemesis responsible for untold death and destruction for 8 years (ISIS)? Was it because he got rid of the world

[katkavage]

Trump was the hate magnet that exposed the media for its obvious bias.  You dont have to like Trump to see that.

The media bias swings both ways, my friend. Just turn on Fox or Newsmax these days and you'll see plenty of hate magnets.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

JBG,

Do you think it's possible (even if it's not actually true) that it's possible to disapprove of how Donald Trump conducted himself as a man and as a man who was President, without being consumed with hatred?  I am not talking about policy disagreement but simply that one doesn't approve of name-calling and other insults.    Maybe they disapprove of Donald's many affairs.   Maybe they were bothered by the "grab them by the p*ssy" comments or how contractors often had to sue to get their payments.

So is it possible that among Trump's 80 or so million critics (just in this country) there was at least one that wasn't swayed by hatred but simply felt that Trump didn't meet their moral and ethical standards?

Like I said in a previous response...I'll take substance over style any day. I'm so sick of sweet talking politicians who have honey dripping off their lips while flattering observers and always trying to be politically correct...and then go back to the office and lead the country in the direction of a cliff while laughing all the way to the bank.

I guarantee if style is that important to you, you would have hated Andrew Jackson, Abe Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and LBJ (the man who used the n word every day in office and sometimes 50 times a day and doing things like pulling out his penis in response to a reporter's question and saying "that's why").

Dems seem to have zero issues with the extreme racist LBJ who openly stated he hated blacks (as did Wilson and FDR before him), throwing the n word around (and proud of it) and was prone to showing off his willie to unsuspecting bystanders or JFK being a drug addict while bedding Hollywood harlots and every pretty women he knew (except Jackie), yet suddenly become so horribly offended by Trump's crudeness that they become extreme hate mongers because this particular President "didn't meet their moral and ethical standards"...LOL (double standard much?)

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I know this is getting off track once Trump was brought up, but did anyone read the article? Did anyone agree with her or have reason to disagree with her? I thought it was well written, but what the hell do I know?