Israeli/Palestinian conflict

[DaveBrown74]

Could you have at least taken 5 minutes to read the post Rich shared? The one where he mentions learning what's going on.

I read the article. Which part of "Hamas fired first'" do you disagree with?

[umassgrad]

I read the article. Which part of "Hamas fired first'" do you disagree with?

Nowhere in the article does it say Hamas fired first. It does say," families facing eviction from their homes, their plight triggering protests in Sheikh Jarrah and beyond. But what the Israeli government initially called a real estate dispute between private parties has now spiraled toward outright war. On Monday, Israeli police escalated its crackdown on protesters by entering the Al-Haram Al-Sharif, site of the revered Al-Aqsa mosque, during the last days of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. They fired teargas and stun grenades at worshippers, and were met by rocks hurled by Palestinians."
Translation: During the holy month of Ramadan the Israeli government evicted Palestinian families from their homes which caused protests. The police fired teargas and stun grenades at the protesters. If anyone doesn't understand the situation it's you.

[DaveBrown74]

Nowhere in the article does it say Hamas fired first. It does say," families facing eviction from their homes, their plight triggering protests in Sheikh Jarrah and beyond. But what the Israeli government initially called a real estate dispute between private parties has now spiraled toward outright war. On Monday, Israeli police escalated its crackdown on protesters by entering the Al-Haram Al-Sharif, site of the revered Al-Aqsa mosque, during the last days of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. They fired teargas and stun grenades at worshippers, and were met by rocks hurled by Palestinians."
Translation: During the holy month of Ramadan the Israeli government evicted Palestinian families from their homes which caused protests. The police fired teargas and stun grenades at the protesters. If anyone doesn't understand the situation it's you.

Hamas fired rockets first on May 10th. They hit multiple residences and a school. This took place after the clashes at the Al Aqsa mosque. If you want to try to say Israel started the conflict because they shut down the prayers at the mosque for the Netanyahu speech at the Wailing Wall, or because of the evictions before that, then that's your prerogative, but when you're talking about the damage done on either side by rockets, to me it matters greatly who opened fire first. And that was Hamas, not Israel. Israel took military action in response. I'm not sure why this is such a struggle to accept.

[bldevil]

Oh boy, we're back to "He started it, not me!" 

[bldevil]

Here's some food for thought.  A thought-provoking essay from Bari Weiss' substack:

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the-new-furies-of-the-oldest-hatred

There's plenty of bad behavior to go around. In a world of 7 billion people you'll find plenty of idiots doing stupid things, defiling mosques as well as synagogues.  But the gist of the piece traces out major portions of anti-semitism, and how it has taken root in the U.S., mentioned by LennG in a prior post.

[MightyGiants]

Here's some food for thought.  A thought-provoking essay from Bari Weiss' substack:

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the-new-furies-of-the-oldest-hatred

There's plenty of bad behavior to go around. In a world of 7 billion people you'll find plenty of idiots doing stupid things, defiling mosques as well as synagogues.  But the gist of the piece traces out major portions of anti-semitism, and how it has taken root in the U.S., mentioned by LennG in a prior post.

Anti-Semitism is a terrible thing, and the number of hate crimes directed at Jewish people rose during the last 4 years.   Of course, the anti-Muslim hatred is just as bad and the numbers of hate crimes (they are the second most targeted religion) are equally bad and also rose over the last 4 years.

We were not to "feel sorry for the Palestinians" even though the Israeli defense forces killed 63 children (and for the sake of fairness Palestinian terrorists killed one Israeli child).  There was even a video posted here proclaiming Jewish people as being superior to Muslims.  I am also troubled by the comments of that essentially equate to "might makes right" where it's proclaimed because Israel is so strong it's their right to use that power as they see fit.

Oddly enough hatred is even used as a cover of sorts.   It's been implied that the only reason people don't support Israel and what they are doing is because everyone is anti-Semitic.   Of course, the claim allows one to hide a lot of wrongdoing (like the settlements no one wants to talk about).

If we ever want to see the killing on both sides stop, we need to put away the rhetoric and the tactics and the stunts.   We need to treat everyone as equals and we need to get into the nuts of bolts of right and wrong.  Palestinian terrorists and terrorism need to be held to account.  Of course, Israel needs to be held to account for settlements and military excesses as well as its citizens attacking Palestinians.

When you have this much hatred (on both sides of the conflict) between two groups who suffer hatred and hate crimes around the world, you need to move past that and start looking at all the facts and start looking at the root causes of the problem and the conflict.   I think it's a disservice to the greater truth to focus only on who shot the first rocket.   We need to look at the conflict in its entirety. 

Israel has a right to exist and exist in peace.   Palestinians have a right to exist and exist in peace and security (and that includes not having their land stolen settled), or their people's put under harsh blockades.

We need to be working towards those goals, not spending all our time talking about hate in the region and in the US.
 
Nobody won the 11-day Israel-Gaza battle, but 230 dead Palestinians and 12 dead Israelis clearly lost

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nobody-won-11-day-israel-065800020.html

[katkavage]

"Nobody won the 11-day Israel-Gaza battle, but 230 dead Palestinians and 12 dead Israelis clearly lost."

I agree and no one will ever win as long as shots are fired or missiles exploded. Israel is a sovereign nation. It has the right to defend its borders. On the other hand, the "Palestine problem" will never disappear by dropping bombs on buildings. They are not going anywhere. They will never be obliterated. So what do do? How can this end? Only by real leaders coming together and finding solutions. And solutions mean compromise. Israel right now has a Trump-like leader who can't govern. Palestine's leader is almost 90 and has little influence. Both sides need better leadership and then....maybe something can get done.

[Bob In PA]

"Nobody won the 11-day Israel-Gaza battle, but 230 dead Palestinians and 12 dead Israelis clearly lost."

I agree and no one will ever win as long as shots are fired or missiles exploded. Israel is a sovereign nation. It has the right to defend its borders. On the other hand, the "Palestine problem" will never disappear by dropping bombs on buildings. They are not going anywhere. They will never be obliterated. So what do do? How can this end? Only by real leaders coming together and finding solutions. And solutions mean compromise. Israel right now has a Trump-like leader who can't govern. Palestine's leader is almost 90 and has little influence. Both sides need better leadership and then....maybe something can get done.

kat: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bill Clinton offered Yasser Arafat everything on his list of demands, and the offer was rejected. 

Arafat preferred to preserve the "issue" of hating Israel rather than solving the problem and convincing his people to go along with the deal.

I don't know what today's Palestinian leaders believe, but I see no direct evidence that the situation has changed.

Bob

[LennG]

"Nobody won the 11-day Israel-Gaza battle, but 230 dead Palestinians and 12 dead Israelis clearly lost."

I agree and no one will ever win as long as shots are fired or missiles exploded. Israel is a sovereign nation. It has the right to defend its borders. On the other hand, the "Palestine problem" will never disappear by dropping bombs on buildings. They are not going anywhere. They will never be obliterated. So what do do? How can this end? Only by real leaders coming together and finding solutions. And solutions mean compromise. Israel right now has a Trump-like leader who can't govern. Palestine's leader is almost 90 and has little influence. Both sides need better leadership and then....maybe something can get done.

Kat

That is all well and good, in theory, but in reality, Israel is the only party that truly wants peace. In the thought it would never happen department, no one ever thought Egypt would accept a peace with Israel, ye they did and live side by side in peace. No one thought Jordan would ever be able to make peace with Israel, but that has also happened. Israel is willing to do just about anything to be able to live in peace in the middle east, but they will never accept a terrorist group masquerading as a nation. And let's call a stone a stone, most of the Palestinians are ruled by Hamas and Hamas is rules by Iran, who will NEVER agree to any sort of peace with Israel.
What really bothers me, like in Nazi Germany, when after the war, ask most Germans and they all reply that they were never Nazis, ask most Palestinians who they follow and it is Hamas, a group that is labeled a terrorist faction.

For 5000 and some years, Jews didn't control their destiny, now, with a state of their own, they can, and do.

And for all the Palestinian supporters, really, what's to like about them? They have been kicked out of their country? I don't think so. The United Nations gave support for the formation of Israel and gave it that little bit of desert that they now call home. They have taken that little piece of desert and made it a thriving country. They farm and grow food in the desert, they have advanced all sciences, what have the Palestinians done in all the time they were there? Israel gave them Gaza, yet the terrorists that control them want Israel to bleed and will never make peace. You want peace in the middle east, remove all terrorists from control and that would be a good start. Israel would welcome peace, but not with terrorists.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

Anti-Semitism is a terrible thing, and the number of hate crimes directed at Jewish people rose during the last 4 years.   Of course, the anti-Muslim hatred is just as bad and the numbers of hate crimes (they are the second most targeted religion) are equally bad and also rose over the last 4 years.

Anti-Semitism has definitely risen and proof of that is littered all over the internet in attacks, burning of synagogues, hate speech on college campuses, etc. I haven't seen the burning of mosques, or hate speech directed at Arabs/Muslims on American colleges, etc. I was wondering if you could actually verify those claims. Most anything done to discredit, threaten, or harm Jews pretty much gets swept under the rug. How many college campuses will discuss the assassination of Sen. Bobby Kennedy? None! That's because Sirhan Sirhan was a Palestinian Arab who despised Kennedy. Ask a hundred top history students about Bobby Kennedy's assassination and probably 99% know who he was (the brother of JFK) and that he was likely going to be the next Democrat president and that he was killed by an assassin. Ask them the reason he was killed and you'll get 100 blank stares. That's because the assassin was Sirhan Sirhan, a "Palestinian" born in what is now known as "Jordan" and he killed RFK for his support of Jews. He even timed the killing to coordinate with the anniversary of the Six-Day War. This kind of knowledge is never taught in schools these days as to avoid hurting feelings I guess  Also, the Democrat Party would have nothing to do with JFK and RFK based on today's party that's been taken over by hard leftists. But I digress!



Another point I wish to make is that there is no such race as "Palestinian". The people being referred to as Palestinians are simply Arabs. There are a half billion Arabs spread across the middle east (and roughly 2 billion practicing Muslims). There are roughly 14.3 million Jews in this world (6 million of those Jews live in Israel as well and nearly 2 million free Arabs who live in Israel). Regardless, for hundreds of years, Jews were referred to as "Palestinians" until 1948, then afterwards, there was no one referred to as "Palestinians", until it was revived by Yassar Arafat. There is simply no such race known as "Palestinian". The people referred to as such in today's uneducated world are Arabs. There are 6 major races in the world, but many ethnicities. Race is determined by physical traits and genetic identity, whereas ethnicity is determined by cultural identification (i.e., language, religious practices, behaviors, expressions unique to members of a specific ethnicity, hierarchical systems, orientation to time/calendars, gender egalitarianism, etc). Until Egyptian born terrorist Yassar Arafat moved into the traditional land of Judea and set up his terrorist headquarters in Jericho, all "Palestinians" were simply referred to as "Arabs" by virtually everyone in the world. In the late 60's, Arafat started using the term "Palestinians" in order to give the Arab group a unique identity.

Quick history lesson. After the Roman Empire slaughtered most of the Jews of Israel and took over the country in the first century AD, they purposely renamed Israel, "Syria Palaestina" both to lay claim to the land as well as add the term "Palaestina" to the area's name in order to spite the "hated Jews" by referencing the extinct people known as Philistines - the historical and most feared enemies of the people of Judea (from where the name "Jews" derives). For those who don't know, Goliath was a Philistine and David was a Jew. Therefore, while the area was called Palaestina (officially in modern times was called the British Mandate of Palestine as of 1920). The British had seized the land from the always evolving empires, this time the Ottoman Empire.

Emperor Titus brought home the plunder from the destruction of Jerusalem and built the "Arch of Titus", which is the original entrance way to the Colosseum.

post a pic

If you look at the carvings on the arch of Roman soldiers bringing their haul back to Rome, you can see them carrying a Menorah and possibly the Ark of the Covenant that was plundered from the temple of Jerusalem.



Regardless, before the two major world wars, the entire middle east was divided by various conquerors and names and boundaries constantly changed. Here's an early map of "Palestine"



After the League of Nations, the land of Palestine was divided into Palestine and Transjordan, both under the control of Great Britain.



Many in the world referred to all people of the land of Palestine, "Palestinians" as well as the Jews themselves. The well known Jerusalem Post was called the Palestinian Post and was 100% owned and operated by Jews. The Palestinian Symphony Orchestra (now called the  Israel Philharmonic Orchestra) was started in Tel Aviv years before WWII and Israel gaining independence and was made up entirely by Jews. And by the way, the modern city of Tel Aviv was a Jewish Community erected in 1909 by Jews where the only language spoken was Hebrew (or in some cases yiddish). When Israel became a free and independent nation in 1948, the use of the term "Palestinian" was no longer used to describe the Jews of Palestine. That is, until Arafat brought it back in the late 60's and started referring to the displaced Arabs, "Palestinians".

Here's the cover of the Palestinian Post in 1948:



Keep in mind there are only 14 million Jews left in this world. There are a half billion Arabs in this world. There are 2 billion Muslims in this world who side with the Arabs in this conflict as the Qur'an directs it's followers to destroy Jews. And now, "modern" America has jumped on the bandwagon in kicking Jews and feeling sorry for Arabs because they can't beat Israel in a war even when they surprise attack!

[LennG]

And the beat just keeps going on

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jewish-groups-sound-alarm-on-rise-in-antisemitic-hate-crimes-amid-tensions-between-israel-hamas/ar-AAKhfYf?ocid=msedgdhp

"Jewish groups sound alarm on rise in antisemitic hate crimes"

I really don't see anything about Palestinians or Muslims, in general, being besieged by hate mongrels.

[MightyGiants]

I haven't seen the burning of mosques, or hate speech directed at Arabs/Muslims on American colleges, etc.

Why do you repeatedly deny the fact that hate crimes against Muslims exist and are on the rise?  At least with anti-Semistims, Jewish people are not victimized twice by suffering the hate crimes and then having people deny that they happened.


I already showed you hate crimes against Muslims (including being beaten to within an inch of their life) and now here is a documented list of hate crimes around the world.   When you deny the FACT that hate crimes against Muslims exist you are victimizing Muslims a second time.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamophobic_incidents

[MightyGiants]

I read the article. Which part of "Hamas fired first'" do you disagree with?

You really need to go back further than that if you are seeking a true understanding.  This article will help you do just that

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/23/middleeast/israel-palestinians-truce-sheikh-jarrah-cmd-intl/index.html

[MightyGiants]

JBG,

Are the people in this article anti-Semetic?


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/22/jewish-americans-israel-palestine-arielle-angel

[Jolly Blue Giant]

Why do you repeatedly deny the fact that hate crimes against Muslims exist and are on the rise?  At least with anti-Semistims, Jewish people are not victimized twice by suffering the hate crimes and then having people deny that they happened.


I already showed you hate crimes against Muslims (including being beaten to within an inch of their life) and now here is a documented list of hate crimes around the world.   When you deny the FACT that hate crimes against Muslims exist you are victimizing Muslims a second time.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamophobic_incidents

Yeah, yeah, I know that there are incidences of hate crimes against Muslims. I'm talking about systematic racist attacks and "group think". Hell, right now there are more incidences of attacks on Asians than on Muslims in this country.

Even though I live in a very rural place, I am within a 35 mile radius of 3 large universities (SU, Cornell, and Binghamton U,) as well as large colleges such as Ithaca College, SUNY Cortland, Le Moyne, etc). Never in my lifetime have I read or heard about Muslim bashing or attacks on Muslims or protests organized to condemn them at these places of "higher" learning. However, it's a regular story in the news of finding swastikas painted or drawn on campuses in my area and protests galore against Israel. Then whenever I read national news, I constantly read about protests against the Jews at universities across this great land. Never once have a read about a college protest about Muslims or heard condemnation of their terrorist activities. Hell, even after Islamic terrorists attacked us on 9/11, our President got up and explained that Islam is a "peaceful religion". 

Anti-Semitism has been around for ages. There has been a systematic attempt to erase their existence off the face of this earth for thousands of years. No other people on this planet have been systematically targeted for extinction with daily attacks against them for no other reason than their heritage.

For some reason, almost everyone on the left these days as well as leaders in the Democrat party have jumped on the Jew bashing wagon and sympathize with terrorist factions being run out of Iran like Hamas and Hezbollah. Geesh, Obama shipped billions of unmarked money in the middle of the night to the mullahs in Iran, knowing full well it would be used to fund more terrorism. It totally baffles me. It baffles me even more the sheer ignorance of people who have zero understanding of the Jewish plight, zero understanding of the goals of the Islamic religion, and have never been to Israel first hand and met the Arabs who live there who love Israel. Yet the left pounds the pulpit preaching hate against the Jews and extreme tolerance of Islamic terrorists. Crazy stuff!