Israeli/Palestinian conflict

[MightyGiants]

Yeah, yeah, I know that there are incidences of hate crimes against Muslims. I'm talking about systematic racist attacks and "group think". Hell, right now there are more incidences of attacks on Asians than on Muslims in this country.

Even though I live in a very rural place, I am within a 35 mile radius of 3 large universities (SU, Cornell, and Binghamton U,) as well as large colleges such as Ithaca College, SUNY Cortland, Le Moyne, etc). Never in my lifetime have I read or heard about Muslim bashing or attacks on Muslims or protests organized to condemn them at these places of "higher" learning. However, it's a regular story in the news of finding swastikas painted or drawn on campuses in my area and protests galore against Israel. Then whenever I read national news, I constantly read about protests against the Jews at universities across this great land. Never once have a read about a college protest about Muslims or heard condemnation of their terrorist activities. Hell, even after Islamic terrorists attacked us on 9/11, our President got up and explained that Islam is a "peaceful religion". 

Anti-Semitism has been around for ages. There has been a systematic attempt to erase their existence off the face of this earth for thousands of years. No other people on this planet have been systematically targeted for extinction with daily attacks against them for no other reason than their heritage.

For some reason, almost everyone on the left these days as well as leaders in the Democrat party have jumped on the Jew bashing wagon and sympathize with terrorist factions being run out of Iran like Hamas and Hezbollah. Geesh, Obama shipped billions of unmarked money in the middle of the night to the mullahs in Iran, knowing full well it would be used to fund more terrorism. It totally baffles me. It baffles me even more the sheer ignorance of people who have zero understanding of the Jewish plight, zero understanding of the goals of the Islamic religion, and have never been to Israel first hand and met the Arabs who live there who love Israel. Yet the left pounds the pulpit preaching hate against the Jews and extreme tolerance of Islamic terrorists. Crazy stuff!

JBG,

How can you speak about "ignorance in others" when you admitted on this very thread your ignorance of the violence and hatred Muslims face around the world.  Where we differ is I acknowledge and condemn both anti-Semitism AND Islamaphobia while you only pretend that anti-Semitism is an issue (and you over apply it to the point where it appears you apply that label to anyone who is not 100% in support of everything Israel does).   


Equality and fairness must be applied to EVERYONE, or those concepts become meaningless.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

JBG,

How can you speak about "ignorance in others" when you admitted on this very thread your ignorance of the violence and hatred Muslims face around the world.  Where we differ is I acknowledge and condemn both anti-Semitism AND Islamaphobia while you only pretend that anti-Semitism is an issue (and you over apply it to the point where it appears you apply that label to anyone who is not 100% in support of everything Israel does).   


Equality and fairness must be applied to EVERYONE, or those concepts become meaningless.

Sorry, but 99% of the violence and hatred Muslims face around the world are from Muslims themselves. Perhaps you don't know the difference between Sunni and Shia and the hatred each sect has for the other based on who succeeded Muhammad in 632 AD. Tens of thousands (probably millions) over the past few hundred years have been killed from competing beliefs within the Arab world.

If I was in a college classroom having this discussion the first thing that would come up from the professor is "the Crusades", which they teach is racism against Arabs and Muslims. I get a kick out of it when they say, "Well, the Crusades were based on Arab/Islamic hatred" and they are condemned by our "great thinkers" in colleges. Never mind that Islamic armies captured all of the middle east, the northern half of Africa, all of Portugal and Spain, a large portion of eastern Europe, and were closing in on France, Italy, and the area now called Germany. The Islamic wars amounted to going into territories, slaughtering all adult males, most adult women, while taking the children and desirable women for slaves after plundering the land. These hostile takeovers took place for over a span of over three hundred years with little to no resistance (as citizens of countries had no armies and were not prepared for war) before someone finally stood up to them and said, "enough's, enough" and fought back after it was obvious that France was about to fall. According to enlightened scholars and professors across this great land, it was racism and bigotry against the poor Arabs to fight back and amounted to nothing more than hostile Christians having reason to slaughter innocent Muslim warriors.



For a mini-history lesson: There were 8 Crusades over a span of 190 years.

First Crusade: 2 years, 6 months (1096-1099)
Second Crusade: 1 year, 3 months (1147-1148)
Third Crusade: 2 years, 3 months (1189-1192)
Fourth Crusade: 2 years, 7 months (1201-1203)
Fifth Crusade: 3 years, 4 months (1217-1221)
Sixth Crusade: less than a year (1228-1229)
Seventh Crusade: 5 years, 3 months (1248-1254)
Eighth Crusade: 5 months (1270)

Total amount of years pushing back against Islamic aggression: 15 years, 4 months spread over a time frame of 174 years.
Total amount of years Islamic armies fought to take over countries: 1300+ years and has been going on since the mid-600s

Regardless, it is unheard of for an American campus to not condemn the Crusades while saying virtually nothing about Arab/Muslim expansion. 

Islamic conquests and areas of control today:


It's hard for me to feel sorry for the Arab/Muslim world as though they are the victims of vicious Jews. I don't hate Arabs, I don't hate Muslims. I even have a couple of friends who are Muslims and have spent years working with some American Arabs in working out engineering problems. I had no problem with them and they had no problem with me...well, there was one guy in Rochester, NY who was originally from Iran who had a great time joking around with me until I mentioned that I had just returned from Israel. From that moment on, he grew silent and was stand-offish.

Anyway, it is your right to see Arabs as victims and Jews as terrible people. We will probably never find common ground. I support Israel and Jews 100% and always will. Doesn't mean I hate Arabs, Muslims, or people who support Arabs and/or Muslims, it just means I'll stand with Israel and the Jews when conflicts arise. And they will 

[MightyGiants]

Sorry, but 99% of the violence and hatred Muslims face around the world are from Muslims themselves.

Can you provide an actual citation that supports this claim?     Some sort of stat or study?   

I Googled the claim and couldn't find a single source to support this claim (even remotely).


JBG,


As I have said before, consistency of opinions is even more important than the opinion itself.  Yet with you, there is extreme inconsistency.   You accuse so many Americans (with a very broad brush) of being "anti-Semitic" if they merely criticize Israel.    Then on the other hand you repeatedly deny hatred for Muslims and then go on long anti-Muslim tirades.   You hear about 63 Muslim children killed in this last conflict and you tell us how it's "hard for you to feel sorry for them"

There is a consistency lacking in your opinions.  For you, it seems that Israel is incapable of wrongdoing and you explain away any and all as just being the byproduct of world-wide all-encompassing anti-Semitism, while at the same time repeatedly attacking and putting down Muslims and blaming them for everything including the hate crimes against them (while essentially denying that hate crimes towards Muslims even exist).  Hell, you even attacked them for their religious practices like their call to prayer.  You then proclaim trouble having any sympathy for them even in light of the deaths of dozens of innocent children.

While doing this you demonized Democrats, liberals, and college campuses.   You rail against the "massive ignorance" of others.

Sorry, but if we hope to have justice and peace in the world, we can't meet hatred and injustice with more hatred and injustice.


As I said, freedom and equality are meaningless if they don't apply to everyone, Israeli, Jewish, Arab, or Muslim alike


It's sort if ironic considering your double standards, that you actually made this accusation:

Anyway, it is your right to see Arabs as victims and Jews as terrible people.

Here is the REALITY, there are villains and victims on both sides of this conflict.  Recognizing that FACT does not make one anti-Semitic or bigotted or prejudice, quite the opposite in fact.  It actually makes on a good fair-minded person who is setting aside bigotry and prejudice to be FAIR to EVERYONE.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

Can you provide an actual citation that supports this claim?     Some sort of stat or study?   

I Googled the claim and couldn't find a single source to support this claim (even remotely).


JBG,


As I have said before, consistency of opinions is even more important than the opinion itself.  Yet with you, there is extreme inconsistency.  You accuse so many Americans (with a very broad brush) of being "anti-Semitic" if they merely criticize Israel.

I have no problem with someone criticizing Israel. The people of Israel are not perfect and are subject to criticism just like anyone in this country. No person and no government is perfect. There's a lot of difference between legitimate criticism with well thought out debate and of chasing down Jews with cars, beating the xxxx out of them while they are having a family dinner in a restaurant, spitting on them as they walk along the sidewalk, painting swastikas on walls at Universities, chanting horrible slogans in front of synagogues, etc. That is not "criticism", that is unadulterated hatred and blatant bigotry. That is what I speak out against.

I do not see Jews painting the Star of David on walls, or "death to Muslims" written on walls, or Jews driving crazy through streets waving huge Israeli flags while trying to run down Muslims, or Jews attacking Muslim families having dinner in a restaurant, etc.

Then on the other hand you repeatedly deny hatred for Muslims and then go on long anti-Muslim tirades. You hear about 63 Muslim children killed in this last conflict and you tell us how it's "hard for you to feel sorry for them"

I feel sorry for the children. I do not feel sorry for the terrorists who use them for shields. It's utterly horrible for children to die from war perpetrated by their fathers. It especially upsets me when soldiers purposely put children in the line of attacks while they attack others hoping to kill as many civilians as possible (including the children of those they hate). Building terrorist cells under schools, trotting children out in front of soldiers on the attack, etc., does not make me feel sorry for those people. The kids are pawns and those who use them as pawns hope for a high death total to gain world wide sympathy...which they get. As stated this week by Mosab Hassan Yousef (the son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef - founder and leader of Hamas), "top Hamas leaders like my father rode out the recent violence in secure underground bunkers, while using the deaths of their own people to score foreign propaganda points. Hundreds of children have paid the price. These type of people cannot get away with what they did. They should not feel safe for a day," he said. "Hamas hates Israel more than they love their own children." That is sad.

I haven't denied that there is "hatred for Muslims", I have no doubt it exists. Heck, there are people who hate Japanese, people who hate Russians people who hate people who have a different political position. What I have said, is that there is not "systematic attacks" on Muslims encouraged by American academia and American main stream media - the same ones who foment hatred for Jews while painting the poor Arabs as a minority class who are victims of the vicious and horrible "non-minority class" Jews. Big difference!

There is a consistency lacking in your opinions.  For you, it seems that Israel is incapable of wrongdoing and you explain away any and all as just being the byproduct of world-wide all-encompassing anti-Semitism, while at the same time repeatedly attacking and putting down Muslims and blaming them for everything including the hate crimes against them (while essentially denying that hate crimes towards Muslims even exist).  Hell, you even attacked them for their religious practices like their call to prayer.  You then proclaim trouble having any sympathy for them even in light of the deaths of dozens of innocent children.

Yeah, I've criticized their religious practices like their "call to prayer". Arabs in Israel freely practice this part of their religion. My point is that it has evolved from cupping hands to alert men (no women allowed) that it's time to pray because there was no such thing as a watch on the men's arms or a clock in their house. Now it is used as an excuse to broadcast not just a call to prayer, but their prayers as well and it's done over 15,000 watt amps so it can be heard for 10 miles even though every man knows exactly what time it is since watches and clocks are standard everywhere in this world.

I really suspect you'd have a hard time if Christians had a "call to prayer" along with their prayers lasting up to a half hour, five times a day and so loud that it was hard to carry on a conversation or hear your television set. Something tells me you'd be highly critical of this type of religion because it is only fair for Muslims to practice their religion in this way, no other religions deserve such respect. Heck, I live near a small village that used to play Christmas Carols out of speakers in their steeple in December and on Sunday Mornings, play a 60 second chime song to remind people it's time for church, but now it has been banned by law. From what I see, there is a systematic approach to educating the people of this country that there will be absolute tolerance of Islam and criticism of Islam is an absolute no-no. However, criticism of the religious practices of Judaism or Judeo-Christianity is absolutely fair game - take your best shot. I suppose it is because Americans see Muslims as a minority class of people (forget that it has 2 billion adherents) and must be protected from the huge group of Jews (14 million world wide and half don't even practice traditional Judaism). I scratch my head wondering why this country is so adamant about criticizing one group of religious people while giving a complete pass to other groups of people who practice their religion, even if it incredibly intrusive on those who don't share their beliefs.

While doing this you demonized Democrats, liberals, and college campuses.   You rail against the "massive ignorance" of others.

Rail?? 

I do see that the Democrats, liberals, and academia have chosen to side with Arabs and Muslims, while clearly being careful not to show any support for Jews and Christians. Hell, there's people on this board who believe Christians shouldn't get involved with politics, yet have no problem with Muslims telling their adherents who to vote for and in turn, vote in lock step with who they are told to vote for in their mosques. It's called hypocrisy.

Sorry, but if we hope to have justice and peace in the world, we can't meet hatred and injustice with more hatred and injustice.

So what are you saying? That in order to achieve justice and peace, we should tell Israel to stand down and let the 4000 missiles land where they may and do not fight back? That's what they've done for a thousand years and it never brought peace and justice, just massive death to their people. It's why they say, "never again" and will fight to the death for survival

As I said, freedom and equality are meaningless if they don't apply to everyone, Israeli, Jewish, Arab, or Muslim alike

It's sort if ironic considering your double standards, that you actually made this accusation:

I'd love nothing more than to see peace and harmony in this world. However, I have read and studied the Qur'an as well as their Hadiths. It is a religion that teaches that Jews must be eliminated from earth. They teach that it is their duty to convert the entire world to Islam and that any land that has ever been conquered in the past belongs to them forever, even if it was taken back (Spain and Portugal for example), and that there is honor in (and rewards for) killing innocent civilians that do not follow Islam. It's very hard to see the grand plan of Islam seeking peace and harmony amongst all people.

On the other hand, there is no such teachings in the Torah or the Bible.

Here is the REALITY, there are villains and victims on both sides of this conflict.  Recognizing that FACT does not make one anti-Semitic or bigotted or prejudice, quite the opposite in fact.  It actually makes on a good fair-minded person who is setting aside bigotry and prejudice to be FAIR to EVERYONE.

You are simply rationalizing your position while cherry picking "facts" to fit your argument. You find "a fact here and there" to justify your position while ignoring thousands of facts that totally obliterate your position.

[MightyGiants]

JBG,

As I have gotten older one thing I learned that being right is not exactly the be all and end all.   While I can see you are misinformed on this topic, I am not going to pursue the issue.   Friendship is more important.   We are not going to solve the problems in the middle east on our little porch but digging in an arguing my point can have negative real consequences.   So I am just going to agree to disagree.

[umassgrad]

We can demonize the entire Palestinian population and call them Hamas or led by the Iranians which isn't true. If you want to wipe that population off the face of the earth because of your dislike of Muslims that is your choice but please don't forget the many Christians living in Palestine. Here's a good article from Christianity today about this issue. https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/august/palestinian-christians-survey-israel-emigration-one-state.html

The concerns of the Palestinian Christians surveyed bear this out.

About 8 in 10 worry about attacks from Jewish settlers and being driven from their homes (83%). About 7 in 10 worry about Israeli annexation (67%). And about 6 in 10 believe Israel

[katkavage]

We can demonize the entire Palestinian population and call them Hamas or led by the Iranians which isn't true. If you want to wipe that population off the face of the earth because of your dislike of Muslims that is your choice but please don't forget the many Christians living in Palestine. Here's a good article from Christianity today about this issue. https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/august/palestinian-christians-survey-israel-emigration-one-state.html

The concerns of the Palestinian Christians surveyed bear this out.

About 8 in 10 worry about attacks from Jewish settlers and being driven from their homes (83%). About 7 in 10 worry about Israeli annexation (67%). And about 6 in 10 believe Israel

[Bob In PA]

We can demonize the entire Palestinian population and call them Hamas or led by the Iranians which isn't true. If you want to wipe that population off the face of the earth because of your dislike of Muslims that is your choice but please don't forget the many Christians living in Palestine. Here's a good article from Christianity today about this issue. https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/august/palestinian-christians-survey-israel-emigration-one-state.html

The concerns of the Palestinian Christians surveyed bear this out.

About 8 in 10 worry about attacks from Jewish settlers and being driven from their homes (83%). About 7 in 10 worry about Israeli annexation (67%). And about 6 in 10 believe Israel

[Bob In PA]

Good post, UMass. That's what I'm trying to convey here. There is not a chance that the Palestinians will ever be "wiped out" The only hope for peace in the region is for both parties to find a way to live together. Right now the leadership on both sides is abysmal.  Israel and Palestine need new leaders who understand what it takes to live in peace. That bombs, missiles, terrorist attacks will just continue the cycle as it has forever now.

kat: I agree. Sadly, I don't see what you and I are hoping for on the immediate horizon.  Too many people (Iran, for one) have much to gain IMO by not allow the situation to be resolved).  Bob

[MightyGiants]

umass: As I often say in other contexts, no large group of people EVER deserves the reputation attributed to them as a whole.  Most people just want to be left alone to live their lives in peace. 

Almost always, the blame falls on people in power who "use" the masses in an unending quest to gain (or keep) power.  Such people will lie, cheat and steal... whatever is necessary.

I believe the people of the Palenstine area have fallen victim to this sort of thing.  As I've said before, their leaders turned down Bill Clinton's excellent peace offer rather than risk losing power, many years ago.

Bob

Since it was so long ago, I had to look up how the peace deal was "excellent" for the Palestinians.  It seems the Palestinians didn't share your view on the plan being "excellent" for them:


On 1 January, the Palestinian Negotiating Team (NAD) published an open letter, explaining why the proposals would "fail to satisfy the conditions required for a permanent peace". They claimed that the parameters divided the Palestinian state, including East Jerusalem, into separate cantons and unconnected islands, and protested the surrender the right of return of Palestinian refugees and lack of clarity and details. Clinton's proposal was not accompanied by a map; only the Israelis presented a map, which would allegedly render the Palestinian state unviable and lacking direct access to international borders. The Palestinians opposed the Israeli annexation of settlement blocs in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, which they claimed subordinated the contiguity of the Palestinian state. They also protested that Israel would gain control over their natural resources, and was planning on ceding them less valuable land on the outskirts of West Bank and Gaza in exchange.[7][24] While Arafat flew to Washington to meet with President Clinton, the newspaper Al-Ayyam published in Arabic a letter to Clinton with the Palestinian reservations.[25]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clinton_Parameters

[Bob In PA]

Since it was so long ago, I had to look up how the peace deal was "excellent" for the Palestinians.  It seems the Palestinians didn't share your view on the plan being "excellent" for them:


On 1 January, the Palestinian Negotiating Team (NAD) published an open letter, explaining why the proposals would "fail to satisfy the conditions required for a permanent peace". They claimed that the parameters divided the Palestinian state, including East Jerusalem, into separate cantons and unconnected islands, and protested the surrender the right of return of Palestinian refugees and lack of clarity and details. Clinton's proposal was not accompanied by a map; only the Israelis presented a map, which would allegedly render the Palestinian state nonviable and lacking direct access to international borders. The Palestinians opposed the Israeli annexation of settlement blocs in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, which they claimed subordinated the contiguity of the Palestinian state. They also protested that Israel would gain control over their natural resources, and was planning on ceding them less valuable land on the outskirts of West Bank and Gaza in exchange.[7][24] While Arafat flew to Washington to meet with President Clinton, the newspaper Al-Ayyam published in Arabic a letter to Clinton with the Palestinian reservations.[25]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clinton_Parameters

Rich: Right. But Clinton asked for and got a list of demands from Arafart; Clinton's offer (to Israel's chagrin) conceded every point (according to Clinton) and the offer was rejected. They moved the goal posts, IMO.  Bob

[umassgrad]

There's moving the goal posts and then there's killing the guy in charge that was making progress at times. What might have been if Rabin hadn't been murdered by Israeli hard liners? At the time of his death, Rabin showed every intention of trying to forge a broader peace that would have included ceding most of the occupied territories to the Palestinians, and probably would have resulted in the establishment of an independent state. Bob, you said it best, " Too many people (Iran, for one) have much to gain IMO by not allowing the situation to be resolved).  Bob" Just sub out Iran and insert another group from the other side and we will have completed our list of too many people.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/26/shot-in-the-heart

[Bob In PA]

There's moving the goal posts and then there's killing the guy in charge that was making progress at times. What might have been if Rabin hadn't been murdered by Israeli hard liners? At the time of his death, Rabin showed every intention of trying to forge a broader peace that would have included ceding most of the occupied territories to the Palestinians, and probably would have resulted in the establishment of an independent state. Bob, you said it best, " Too many people (Iran, for one) have much to gain IMO by not allowing the situation to be resolved).  Bob" Just sub out Iran and insert another group from the other side and we will have completed our list of too many people.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/26/shot-in-the-heart

umass: Nice post.  Good points.  To be sure, the phrase I used (many people) was not intended to exclude any of the "usual suspects" in these Palestinian-Israeli matter.  Bob

[katkavage]

kat: I agree. Sadly, I don't see what you and I are hoping for on the immediate horizon.  Too many people (Iran, for one) have much to gain IMO by not allow the situation to be resolved).  Bob

I agree that it won't happen tomorrow or probably for years. But someone has to step up on both sides. The Israeli PM can't even form a government. His way has been bad from the get go. While Hamas can only promote martyrdom. And Abbas is ancient and ineffective, controlled by Hamas. New leaders on both sides please with new ideas.

[Bob In PA]

I agree that it won't happen tomorrow or probably for years. But someone has to step up on both sides. The Israeli PM can't even form a government. His way has been bad from the get go. While Hamas can only promote martyrdom. And Abbas is ancient and ineffective, controlled by Hamas. New leaders on both sides please with new ideas.

kat: I don't know your age but I'm assuming you've been around about as long as I have... to live this long waiting for good leaders to step up (without results) is disconcerting.  Bob