More On the Lab Leak Hypothesis

[jimmyz]

Fauci is pulling a 180. 

Hint:  when it comes to Fauci believe the opposite of what he initially says and he will eventually catch up with you.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/555057-fauci-bombshell-not-convinced-covid-19-developed

Wuhan Lab staff sought medical attention in November 2019.  CCP's reply is that US spreads disinformation. 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/wuhan-lab-staff-sought-hospital-care-before-covid-19-outbreak-disclosed-wsj-2021-05-23/

Biden administration continued to have "serious questions about the earliest days of the COVID-19 pandemic, including its origins within the Peoples Republic of China."

[MightyGiants]

A Trump administration "intelligence" report claims that 3 Wuhan Lab workers went to the hospital with Covid in November.

Now that sounds pretty damning until one takes a moment to think about what would happen if 3 covid patients sick enough to seek medical attention showed up at a hospital and no precautions were taken.  The hospital would have been ground zero for the Covid outbreak and even the most basic outbreak investigation would reveal that.


In the end, Trump and the Republicans are proving to be less trustworthy than the Chinese Government.


As for Fauci, this is the right's dishonesty at work.  In science, we don't rule anything out until proven ruled out.   Still, the science to date has ruled lab accidents as highly unlikely.  However, since Trump and the Republicans desperately want someone to blame for their criminally negligent handling of the disease that needlessly killed 100s of thousands of Americans, they are pointing a finger at their latest boogie man, the Chinese, and pretend not-ruled out is the same as "this is how it happened"

[Bob In PA]

A Trump administration "intelligence" report claims that 3 Wuhan Lab workers went to the hospital with Covid in November.

Now that sounds pretty damning until one takes a moment to think about what would happen if 3 covid patients sick enough to seek medical attention showed up at a hospital and no precautions were taken.  The hospital would have been ground zero for the Covid outbreak and even the most basic outbreak investigation would reveal that.


In the end, Trump and the Republicans are proving to be less trustworthy than the Chinese Government.


As for Fauci, this is the right's dishonesty at work.  In science, we don't rule anything out until proven ruled out.   Still, the science to date has ruled lab accidents as highly unlikely.  However, since Trump and the Republicans desperately want someone to blame for their criminally negligent handling of the disease that needlessly killed 100s of thousands of Americans, they are pointing a finger at their latest boogie man, the Chinese, and pretend not-ruled out is the same as "this is how it happened"

Rich: Everyone here seems to know the bold-face part of your post.... except you.  Bob

[Bob In PA]

I would caution anyone interested in participating in this post to stick to medical facts, and to avoid and ignore political references, as they are no longer to be put on this (Front Porch) site.  Bob

[MightyGiants]

I would caution anyone interested in participating in this post to stick to medical facts, and to avoid and ignore political references, as they are no longer to be put on this (Front Porch) site.  Bob

Bob this thread is NOTHING but right-wing propaganda designed to attack the truth for political gain.  This thread should have been shut down already.   

You and Jimmy are both overhyping a remote possibility for political gain (at the expense of the truth)

Of course, your man Trump's former CDC director didn't even bother to pretend it was just a possibility

Redfield went on to say:

[Bob In PA]

Bob this thread is NOTHING but right-wing propaganda designed to attack the truth for political gain.  This thread should have been shut down already.   

You and Jimmy are both overhyping a remote possibility for political gain (at the expense of the truth)

Of course, your man Trump's former CDC director didn't even bother to pretend it was just a possibility

Redfield went on to say:

[MightyGiants]

Rich: The question of the origins of the virus is open, and resolution of the issue has nothing to do with politics.  It is a scientific issue.

Fauci has recently indicated he is not sure whether the virus came from a lab - or - whether it came from nature and jump from an animal to a human. 

I see you as the person who has now twice attempted to bring politics into the discussion.  True, the original post mentions Biden but only because it is referring to the people in his administration.

Bob

PS.  You use the word "truth a lot in your posts.  If you know the "truth" about the origins of the coronavirus, please let us in on the secret.

Bob,

The TRUTH is this thread has NOTHING to do with the scientific pursuit of the origins of the virus and everything about you and Jimmy pushing  propaganda by overhyping a remote possibility strictly for your political gain

[Bob In PA]

Bob,

The TRUTH is this thread has NOTHING to do with the scientific pursuit of the origins of the virus and everything about you and Jimmy pushing  propaganda by overhyping a remote possibility strictly for your political gain

Rich: Just follow the science.  Bob

[Bob In PA]

Jimmy:  In November, 2019, yes, three researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were hospitalized with symptoms consistent with COVID-19 BUT ALSO consistent with common seasonal illness.

This fact is known to US intelligence officials, and President Biden has been pushing for more access and more information in order to get to the bottom of exactly what happened.

The administration has repeatedly called for the WHO to support an expert driven evaluation of the pandemic's origins that is free from interference or politicization.  I'm counting on this.  I want to know the truth.

Bob

[jimmyz]

Jimmy:  In November, 2019, yes, three researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were hospitalized with symptoms consistent with COVID-19 BUT ALSO consistent with common seasonal illness.

This fact is known to US intelligence officials, and President Biden has been pushing for more access and more information in order to get to the bottom of exactly what happened.

The administration has repeatedly called for the WHO to support an expert driven evaluation of the pandemic's origins that is free from interference or politicization.  I'm counting on this.  I want to know the truth.

Bob

Bob,

It took the 'scientists' all of, what, one week to determine the origin of the virus even though the virus has never been found in a wild animal and transmits 99.99% indoors.  Must have been transmitted by a house bat.   

Imagine all the great scientists in history who never lived long enough to see their theories proven or accepted; and just how much in awe they would be at Peter Daszak's ability to sway an entire planet's opinion with one letter.

[Bob In PA]

Bob,

It took the 'scientists' all of, what, one week to determine the origin of the virus even though the virus has never been found in a wild animal and transmits 99.99% indoors.  Must have been transmitted by a house bat.   

Imagine all the great scientists in history who never lived long enough to see their theories proven or accepted; and just how much in awe they would be at Peter Daszak's ability to sway an entire planet's opinion with one letter.

jimmy: There was a second letter, actually, although that one was only signed by five people, so it probably carried a lot less weight. In any event, the efficacy of the speculation in the Daszak at letter was not questioned until now. I have no idea why not.  It just doesn't make sense. I'm no scientist, but I believe I'm entitled to opine that the Daszak letter consisted only of (at most) an educated guess. To be sure, the people who signed the letter were certainly qualified to render their opinion and make an educated guess (a lot more qualified than I am) but there were also thousands of other qualified scientists who seemed to have been either asleep at the wheel - or - somehow "cowed" into remaining silent.  Can you think of any other explanation? Bob

[MightyGiants]

Rich: Just follow the science.  Bob

Jimmy:  In November, 2019, yes, three researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were hospitalized with symptoms consistent with COVID-19 BUT ALSO consistent with common seasonal illness.

This fact is known to US intelligence officials, and President Biden has been pushing for more access and more information in order to get to the bottom of exactly what happened.

The administration has repeatedly called for the WHO to support an expert driven evaluation of the pandemic's origins that is free from interference or politicization.  I'm counting on this.  I want to know the truth.

Bob

You commentary reminds me of the old saying, "be careful what you wish for"   


See one of the first things we in science learn is what a fact actually is.    An intelligence report is not actually a "fact".  If they were, then Bush and the GOP wouldn't be guilty of war crimes (war of aggression) when they attacked Iraq falsely claiming they were in possession of WMDs.    Of course, the quality of intelligence reports vary and this one is not even a particularly good one.

The Journal said current and former officials familiar with the intelligence expressed a range of views about the strength of the report's supporting evidence, with one unnamed person saying it needed "further investigation and additional corroboration."

So Bob, the fact is you falsely claimed what was found in a Trump-era intelligence report was a "FACT".    We don't do that in science.   Do you know what else we don't do in science?   We don't look only at facts that support an agenda.  Instead we look at ALL the facts in our efforts to learn the truth.  So it was highly unethical (scientifically speaking) to deliberately leave out this report

Yuan Zhiming, director of the lab, told the Global Times the Journal report was "groundless." China's foreign ministry spokesman, Zhao Lijian, also called the claim "completely untrue."

This omission is hardly accidental.  This thread (and the previous one) have nothing to do with science or the scientific method, and everything to do with politics and promoting political agendas through selectively posting information you deem favorable to your cause.

Of course, I am sure you or Jimmy will claim that we can't trust the Chinese government, but somehow we can trust Trump and Pompeo two men that betrayed their nation by lying about the results of the last election.   It's funny but in my world when you repeatedly lie, you are no longer trusted.

So in the end we have a weak intelligence report produced by known liars and we have the denial of the Chinese government (also known liars) and the denial from the head of the lab (whose track record of honesty is unknown.

Of course, this is hardly an isolated incident of cherry-picking data over looking at all the facts.  While you two have parrotted right-wing talking points over two threads and posted all sorts of information you deemed favorable to your political agendas, not one of you have posted the scientific report produced by over 30 worldwide disease experts who went to China (under the auspices of WHO) and investigated the origins of the disease.      Why would you post this high-quality scientific study factual study?   Because it doesn't support your political agendas and these threads were never about science and examining all the relevant facts.  The report you pretended didn't exist concluded that lab accident was HIGHLY UNLIKELY.   

https://www.who.int/health-topics/coronavirus/origins-of-the-virus

via GIPHY

[Bob In PA]

Rich: I think you misread me, so I won't reply until you get a chance to maybe alter your post.  Let me know.   

The "fact" to which I was referring when I said "this fact" in my post refers to the immediately preceding sentence, and I sincerely believe if you read that sentence again you will agree that that IS a fact. 

I'm saying they know three people got sick, but they don't know what disease they suffered.  It could have been the flu or some other seasonal illness.  It also could have been COVID. The symptoms are ambiguous.

Bob

PS. I do try never to use the word "fact" in posts about contentious subjects without thinking thrice (hopefully, it's not my eyes playing tricks on me).

[MightyGiants]

Rich: I think you misread me, so I won't reply until you get a chance to maybe alter your post.  Let me know.   

The "fact" to which I was referring when I said "this fact" in my post refers to the immediately preceding sentence, and I sincerely believe if you read that sentence again you will agree that that IS a fact. 

I'm saying they know three people got sick, but they don't know what disease they suffered.  It could have been the flu or some other seasonal illness.  It also could have been COVID. The symptoms are ambiguous.

Bob

PS. I do try never to use the word "fact" in posts about contentious subjects without thinking thrice (hopefully, it's not my eyes playing tricks on me).

No, I stand 100% by what I said.  The only "fact" is that the Trump administration produced an intelligence report (the qualify of which is subject to debate) CLAIMING that 3 people got sick from the lab and went to the hospital.   It's also a fact that both the Chinese government and the lab dispute that claim.

[Bob In PA]

No, I stand 100% by what I said.  The only "fact" is that the Trump administration produced an intelligence report (the qualify of which is subject to debate) CLAIMING that 3 people got sick from the lab and went to the hospital.   It's also a fact that both the Chinese government and the lab dispute that claim.

Rich: First, I was truly unaware that the Chinese government and the lab dispute the claim the anyone who works in the lab ever became ill at the time in question.  I have never seen that stated anywhere.

Further, don't you have trouble believing no lab employee was ever ill at the time in question? I have a great deal of trouble believing that.  Are they are super-human beings who never get sick for any reason?

Lastly, I have never seen anything from the Biden administration disputing the intel report, nor has Biden publicly contested (or even questioned) the findings of the intel report.

Bob