Unvaccinated people are "variant factories," infectious diseases expert says

[MightyGiants]

Unvaccinated people do more than merely risk their own health. They're also a risk to everyone if they become infected with coronavirus, infectious disease specialists say.
That's because the only source of new coronavirus variants is the body of an infected person.
"Unvaccinated people are potential variant factories," Dr. William Schaffner, a professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, told CNN Friday.

"The more unvaccinated people there are, the more opportunities for the virus to multiply," Schaffner, a professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, said.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/03/health/unvaccinated-variant-factories/index.html

[DaveBrown74]

While I am not going to judge people for deciding to do (or in this case not do) something that is perfectly legal and clearly their right, I am all for imposing heavier restrictions and more red tape etc for those who are not vaxed. This is the right thing to do anyway from a safety perspective, but hopfully it also has the effect of persuading some folks who are on the fence to go ahead and get it done.

[LennG]

"More than 150 Houston hospital workers fired or quit after refusing COVID-19 vaccine"

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-06-22/houston-covid-vaccine-fired

And a judge upheld their firings.

https://boingboing.net/2021/06/15/judge-upholds-firing-health-care-workers-who-dont-get-vaccinated-for-covid-19.html

As it should be. These people tend to the sick and that could be potentially deadly if they unknowingly have any virus.

[Ed Vette]

They're not breaking the law. Should there be a law mandate? Should Vaxxed have an ID Card and should there be serious restrictions without one? We may soon be facing issues concerning Liberty in this country and many others.

[DaveBrown74]

They're not breaking the law. Should there be a law mandate? Should Vaxxed have an ID Card and should there be serious restrictions without one? We may soon be facing issues concerning Liberty in this country and many others.

I think when you are talking about the health and safety of others, and not just the individual in question, then it becomes difficult (at best) to put all of these issues under the umbrella of personal liberty. Should smoking cigarettes in crowded public locations be more permitted? Was life better when people had the liberty to smoke in places like airplanes and in doctors' waiting rooms?

I certainly don't think anyone should be forced to have the vaccine. However I do think it is also wrong to knowingly allow the rest of the society to be put at any more additional risk than they need to be based solely on the decisions of others to not vaccinate, despite overwhelmingly strong and uniform advice from doctors and other infectious disease experts.

[Bob In PA]

They're not breaking the law. Should there be a law mandate? Should Vaxxed have an ID Card and should there be serious restrictions without one? We may soon be facing issues concerning Liberty in this country and many others.

Ed: It's a tough issue, but I side with you.  DB and Rich present their side well, but there are two ways of looking at it.  IMO you hit the key point... there is nothing illegal about refusing to be vaccinated.

All questions of societal interaction involve balancing the rights of groups of people who have varying viewpoints, all of whom are behaving legally and exercising various constitutional rights. 

Those who want to be vaccinated are free to do so, and certain restrictions on those who don't want to be vaccinated are acceptable, so long as they are reasonable. 

Most people don't legally own a weapon and get training to learn how and when to use it correctly.  Even if you and I think everyone who lives in a dangerous area would be smart to do so, we can't force it on them.

I think that's a pretty fair analogy, but the same line of reasoning applies to most issues where disparate constitutional rights clash.  We have to strike a balance in such cases... and it is never easy.

Bob

[MightyGiants]

I tend to love a good analogy, but frankly the Covid situation is so unique that I don't think it's possible to have a good one for this situation.

Essentially Covid has created an interesting situation.   Every person on earth has the ability (assuming they have access to the vaccine) to make a personal choice that has the potential to kill millions of people on the planet (if they opt not to get vaccinated).   Never in the history of mankind has such a decision been placed in the hands of every person on the planet.


I find it interesting to hear the justifications people make when they decide to put themselves, their family, their friends, and the world in jeopardy.    I know that Moral Relativism has become so popular that the idea of good and bad or right or wrong are supposedly obsolete concepts.  However, I think the flaw in moral relativism is there is one fundamental objective/universal moral value:


do unto others as you would have them do unto you

In that case I would want others not to endanger me or my family or my family or the world.   

[Bob In PA]

do unto others as you would have them do unto you

Rich: There are moral sub-issues in every issue involving societal interaction, the law, and constitutional rights.

I'm fairly sure that you're right to say there is an uncharacteristically weighty moral issue regarding the vaccine, but I'm not 100 percent certain.  Haven't thought about it enough, I guess.

There is an even heavier moral issue regarding abortion, yet society and the law have provided reasonable (IMO) restrictions on the right of women to do with their own bodies as they see fit.

Bob

[MightyGiants]

Rich: There are moral sub-issues in every issue involving societal interaction, the law, and constitutional rights.

I'm fairly sure that you're right to say there is an uncharacteristically weighty moral issue regarding the vaccine, but I'm not 100 percent certain.  Haven't thought about it enough, I guess.

There is an even heavier moral issue regarding abortion, yet society and the law have provided reasonable (IMO) restrictions on the right of women to do with their own bodies as they see fit.

Bob

Bob,

I would suggest that abortion is a very poor comparison as that is an issue that involves religious beliefs and personal beliefs and at best  potentially impacts one other being (depending on your own beliefs).

This issue is far more factual rather than belief based.   It is a FACT that not getting vaccinated increases the chances of a person contracting Covid, infecting others with Covid, and creating a variant that is more deadly or can negate the vaccine.    Abortion is all about beliefs (mostly religious) and the right of governments to be used to force those beliefs on others.

[LennG]

Certainly, they have a right not to be vaccinated, but the hospital also has the right to fire them because of that fact, and a judge and the courts agree.

[MightyGiants]

Certainly, they have a right not to be vaccinated, but the hospital also has the right to fire them because of that fact, and a judge and the courts agree.

In my opinion if you want to care for patients, you should be required to be vaccinated for both Covid-19 and the flu.   Both of those diseases allow you to be infectious without knowing.  The first rule of medicine is do no harm.   When you care for patients you frequently come in contact with the most medically vulnerable.  To risk infecting them would violate medical ethics.

[Bob In PA]

Bob,

I would suggest that abortion is a very poor comparison as that is an issue that involves religious beliefs and personal beliefs and at best  potentially impacts one other being (depending on your own beliefs).

This issue is far more factual rather than belief based.   It is a FACT that not getting vaccinated increases the chances of a person contracting Covid, infecting others with Covid, and creating a variant that is more deadly or can negate the vaccine.    Abortion is all about beliefs (mostly religious) and the right of governments to be used to force those beliefs on others.

Rich: Ok, but then I believe you would agree that anyone who objects to taking the vaccine primarily on religious grounds should be exempt from our discussion of the topic that is the basis of this thread.  Bob

[Bob In PA]

Rich probably has more (or better) info on this, but here's another angle on the issue.

https://slate.com/technology/2021/06/delta-variant-covid-vaccines-risk-monica-gandhi.html

[MightyGiants]

Rich: Ok, but then I believe you would agree that anyone who objects to taking the vaccine primarily on religious grounds should be exempt from our discussion of the topic that is the basis of this thread.  Bob

If you can find an organized religion that has an objection (I am not aware of any) that adds an extra element to the discussion but religious belief doesn't exempt them from the realities I have brought up.

The vast majority of the vaccine-hesitant (from my research) fall into two broad categories (looking beyond the superficial claims)

1) Those who are afraid to be vaccinated

2) Those who don't want the government to tell them what to do and/or don't care about others

Rich probably has more (or better) info on this, but here's another angle on the issue.

https://slate.com/technology/2021/06/delta-variant-covid-vaccines-risk-monica-gandhi.html

Bob,

This is an odd one.  I have seen stats in two different ways.   One set of stats (like the article you posted) suggest the vaccine is effective against the delta variant and there is nothing to worry about.

Then I see other stats that show that while maybe half of the non-vaccinated there are considerable numbers getting sick or dying from the variant despite being vaccinated.   Look at Israel where indoor masking was reinstituted despite high vaccination rates. 

[Bob In PA]

If you can find an organized religion that has an objection (I am not aware of any) that adds an extra element to the discussion but religious belief doesn't exempt them from the realities I have brought up.

The vast majority of the vaccine-hesitant (from my research) fall into two broad categories (looking beyond the superficial claims)

1) Those who are afraid to be vaccinated

2) Those who don't want the government to tell them what to do and/or don't care about others

Bob,

This is an odd one.  I have seen stats in two different ways.   One set of stats (like the article you posted) suggest the vaccine is effective against the delta variant and there is nothing to worry about.

Then I see other stats that show that while maybe half of the non-vaccinated there are considerable numbers getting sick or dying from the variant despite being vaccinated.   Look at Israel where indoor masking was reinstituted despite high vaccination rates.

Rich: There are several religions that reject medical intervention generally, and there are a good number of court cases dealing with the interplay between freedom of religion and public health/safety. 

As for the other thing, yes, our knowledge of the science is still somewhat unsettled, as the daily addition of new studies and data regarding new diseases continues. There are "outliers" on both sides of the equation. 

Some people unexpectedly die, some unexpectedly recover, and at times it appears to be random and unpredictable.  As we continue to learn more, outliers will be identified as such and "general rules" will develop.

Bob