Unvaccinated people are "variant factories," infectious diseases expert says

[MightyGiants]

Rich: There are several religions that reject medical intervention generally, and there are a good number of court cases dealing with the interplay between freedom of religion and public health/safety. 

As for the other thing, yes, our knowledge of the science is still somewhat unsettled, as the daily addition of new studies and data regarding new diseases continues. There are "outliers" on both sides of the equation. 

Some people unexpectedly die, some unexpectedly recover, and at times it appears to be random and unpredictable.  As we continue to learn more, outliers will be identified as such and "general rules" will develop.

Bob

Since I am addressing moral and ethical issues, what the law or courts say has no bearing.   As for the unknown science, I suspect it

[LennG]

They had a big to-do a while back about the Measles and kids who were not vaccinated and a religious sect that said that they would not vaccinate them. They were NOT allowed back into school as a result.
Religious beliefs are one thing but you still have to think of the good of many against the good of a few.

Again, I believe the courts upheld the schools rights to bar kids who were not vaccinated.

It is a long time since I worried about my kids being vaccinated to go to school, but wasn't that the rule of thumb, you had to be vaccinated for whatever vaccines that were available in order to go to school?

[Bob In PA]

They had a big to-do a while back about the Measles and kids who were not vaccinated and a religious sect that said that they would not vaccinate them. They were NOT allowed back into school as a result.
Religious beliefs are one thing but you still have to think of the good of many against the good of a few.

Again, I believe the courts upheld the schools rights to bar kids who were not vaccinated.

It is a long time since I worried about my kids being vaccinated to go to school, but wasn't that the rule of thumb, you had to be vaccinated for whatever vaccines that were available in order to go to school?

Lenn: Those were long-standing, long-tested vaccines.

The covid vaccines were prepared hurriedly, have not been finally approved by the required authorities, and you had to sign a paper acknowledging that the product is still (in essence) an experimental-stage medicine.

The paper you signed also greatly narrows (and almost eliminates) your ability to file a products liability suit in the event that something goes wrong. 

Bob

[MightyGiants]

>Fauci said people who are fully vaxxed should "go the extra mile" and still wear a face mask in low-vaccinated areas.

>"Even as good as they are and highly effective, nothing is 100%," Fauci said on "Meet the Press."

>The Delta variant is causing higher hospitalizations in several states throughout the country.

Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said even people who are fully vaccinated should still "go the extra mile" to ensure protection in areas with low vaccination rates.

"Even as good as they are and highly effective, nothing is 100%," Fauci said of vaccines during an interview on NBC's "Meet the Press" Sunday morning.

"If you put yourself in an environment in which you have a high level of viral dynamics and a very low level of vaccine, you might want to go the extra step and say: 'When I'm in that area where there's a considerable degree of viral circulation, I might want to go the extra mile to be cautious enough to make sure that I get the extra added level of protection,' Fauci said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/dr-fauci-says-fully-vaxxed-people-should-still-go-the-extra-mile-and-wear-face-masks-in-low-vaccination-areas/ar-AALLi06

[Ed Vette]

They're not breaking the law. Should there be a law mandate? Should Vaxxed have an ID Card and should there be serious restrictions without one? We may soon be facing issues concerning Liberty in this country and many others.

So I'll touch on some of these questions. My personal beliefs that are contrary to the laws and the constitution are nothing more than my beliefs and I don't force feed them on anyone, contrary to those who repeatedly argue their points.

I believe that laws should be in place to protect anyone from harm caused by others. If a law doesn't exist and most people believe there should, then it should be explored. Personally, nobody should be forced to do anything as long as it doesn't cause harm to others. Bob brought up abortion. The people who cry the most about Liberty are the ones trying to tell other people what they can and can't do on this issue. They are also the ones who side against social programs that would support unwed mothers and to feed those in poverty.

There are two sides to this Vaxx issue. Legal and ethical. I was vaccinated back in February. I believe that everyone who can safely get the vaccine should get it but... I won't force that on anyone unless it's illegal, which it is not. We have seen statements by the WHO, the CDC and Fauci over the past year that have contradicted each other on occasion or made them backpedal after being proven wrong. That would include the former President.

The mantra is that masks work. They are available to anyone who wants to protect themselves whether they are Vaxxed or not. Is there conclusive irrefutable science that people who aren't vaccinated will cause a strain of a deadly variant that will put the world at risk? Apparently not because there is no law or Vaxx mandate. Btw, how can a law like that be enforced other than take away their liberty to buy or sell or have a job? I keep thing back to Revelations and the mark of the Beast in order to trade. Of course those that refuse to get their shot just because they are being difficult should face consequences and it's ok as far as I'm concerned that businesses and facilities can do what is necessary to protect their employees, customers and business. Take Lenn's example of medical workers who refuse to take the shot even though they are in a profession to protect and save lives. I agree they should not be allowed to work in an environment where they can cause harm to others. Should Government intervene? I don't believe so either way as to restrict business or take away the rights of a citizen. One exception would be if the consequences would be the extinction of our species.

In my perfect world, everyone gets vaccinated, the vaccine proves to be safe long term and Covid is reduced to a non-issue. I don't get to have my way because I belong to a Republic where there are other people who have rights. There is a danger to Democracy and Liberty once we take away the right of free speech even if those words are wrong or evil. Those words however should have consequences. Social media is a business and I believe they have the right to ban or suspend anyone but the Government shouldn't take away that right or make them do so. There's a danger in crossing a line of taking away civil Liberty where it sets up the next action and raises the bar.

I don't personally know anyone who refuses to get the vaccine based on their position of Civil Liberty but I know people who can't take it for medical reasons. I think those areas of the country where it is an issue didn't initially face what we faced here in NY-NJ. Once people they know or are close to start dying, a lot of them will re-thing their priorities. Although Wyoming and sparsely populated areas will never be in danger enough to get them to that point.

[MightyGiants]

Is there conclusive irrefutable science that people who aren't vaccinated will cause a strain of a deadly variant that will put the world at risk? Apparently not because there is no law or Vaxx mandate.

I am not seeing the logic of this answer.    You jumped from science to politics (where laws come from).  I am not following how political action or lack thereof provides scientific evidence

[Ed Vette]

I am not seeing the logic of this answer.    You jumped from science to politics (where laws come from).  I am not following how political action or lack thereof provides scientific evidence

The assumption is that if science had enough evidence, government would take action. For example last year when the country was shut down for a month or when a vaccine was fast tracked or the mask mandate in public. The country and Govt are moving in the opposite direction.

[LennG]

Ed

  I agree with just about everything you said. My one dissension is and always has been the 'free speech' thing. Yes, our constitution grants us all 'free speech' but that still doesn't give anyone the right to get up and yell 'FIRE' in a crowded place, with the result of causing a stampede and people getting injured. Can someone argue free speech and get away with that? There are, and have to be, restrictions for the public good.
Our constitution gives us the right to free speech, but that was intended to let anyone speak up against the government and not be persecuted for it, as it was in colonial days, right up to the present, we have the right to stand up on any soapbox and complain about the government with no fear of being locked up, as it is in so many other countries. Free speech is wonderful, but it just doesn't give people the right to do harm to others.

What did people do with the smallpox vaccine, the polio vaccine? Did the government make it mandatory that people get it? I'm not positive, but I would think not. But people weren't as obstinate then as they seem to be now. And schools and businesses have the right, for the greater good, to ban, fire, not let people in if they feel that any of those people can do harm to others. You want not to be vaccinated, fine, just be prepared to suffer whatever consequence that might come from it, and don't spout 'free speech' as their right.

[Bob In PA]

Ed

  I agree with just about everything you said. My one dissension is and always has been the 'free speech' thing. Yes, our constitution grants us all 'free speech' but that still doesn't give anyone the right to get up and yell 'FIRE' in a crowded place, with the result of causing a stampede and people getting injured. Can someone argue free speech and get away with that? There are, and have to be, restrictions for the public good.
Our constitution gives us the right to free speech, but that was intended to let anyone speak up against the government and not be persecuted for it, as it was in colonial days, right up to the present, we have the right to stand up on any soapbox and complain about the government with no fear of being locked up, as it is in so many other countries. Free speech is wonderful, but it just doesn't give people the right to do harm to others.

What did people do with the smallpox vaccine, the polio vaccine? Did the government make it mandatory that people get it? I'm not positive, but I would think not. But people weren't as obstinate then as they seem to be now. And schools and businesses have the right, for the greater good, to ban, fire, not let people in if they feel that any of those people can do harm to others. You want not to be vaccinated, fine, just be prepared to suffer whatever consequence that might come from it, and don't spout 'free speech' as their right.

Len: Good post.  One thing, however.  The covid vaccines are technically not "finished products" in the scientific or legal sense. 

But actually, today is no different than the past, at least insofar as the polio vaccine is concerned.  Some parents chose not to vaccinate their children (for various reasons). 

If you recall (assuming you've seen the short-lived TV series "American Dreams") this issue was depicted in season one; the younger son of the stars wore a brace because he had not been vaccinated and got polio.

Bob

[MightyGiants]

Here is an article worth reading

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMia2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnRpbWVzb2Zpc3JhZWwuY29tL2lzcmFlbC1jb25maXJtcy12YWNjaW5lLWxlc3MtZWZmZWN0aXZlLWFnYWluc3QtZGVsdGEtdmFyaWFudC1leWVzLXRoaXJkLWRvc2Uv0gFvaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGltZXNvZmlzcmFlbC5jb20vaXNyYWVsLWNvbmZpcm1zLXZhY2NpbmUtbGVzcy1lZmZlY3RpdmUtYWdhaW5zdC1kZWx0YS12YXJpYW50LWV5ZXMtdGhpcmQtZG9zZS9hbXAv?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

[Ed Vette]

(null)
You need to reread every word I chose, Lenn. You

[Ed Vette]

(null)
To be clear we have the right to yell fire in a theater with consequences.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bob In PA]

Here is an article worth reading

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMia2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnRpbWVzb2Zpc3JhZWwuY29tL2lzcmFlbC1jb25maXJtcy12YWNjaW5lLWxlc3MtZWZmZWN0aXZlLWFnYWluc3QtZGVsdGEtdmFyaWFudC1leWVzLXRoaXJkLWRvc2Uv0gFvaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGltZXNvZmlzcmFlbC5jb20vaXNyYWVsLWNvbmZpcm1zLXZhY2NpbmUtbGVzcy1lZmZlY3RpdmUtYWdhaW5zdC1kZWx0YS12YXJpYW50LWV5ZXMtdGhpcmQtZG9zZS9hbXAv?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

Rich: Good article.  Relates to the Pfizer vaccine.  Bob

[LennG]

(null)
You need to reread every word I chose, Lenn. You

[DaveBrown74]

If someone is genuinely scared of the vaccine and believes, rightly or wrongly, that it is more dangerous to them than the disease itself, and does not place great significance on the argument that vaccinating oneself is better for the population at large and not just the individual, then I can understand why someone might make that decision. I don't personally agree with it, but I can see how someone could arrive at that.

What I don't think I understand though is why someone would choose not to get vaccinated purely because of "their position on civil liberty." Who has threatened their civil liberty? The government is not requiring people to get vaccinated, so why the need to protest and take some sort of statement at the expense of your and others' personal well being? Given the government is not forcing anyone to get the vaccine, why is not getting one akin to taking a stance on your civil liberty? Clearly it is anyone's right to do that and I am not suggesting it shouldn't be, but it does not make much sense to me. No one has forced them to do anything.