Unvaccinated people are "variant factories," infectious diseases expert says

[squibber]

I have an analogy. Let

[Bob In PA]

I have an analogy. Let

[T200]

I have an analogy. Let

[MightyGiants]

This is a question more directed to people older than me (but anyone can answer)


Is it my imagination or as a nation we are losing our true patriotism and sense of civic duty?   

I mean we have seen throughout the Covid crisis people's actions and that was detrimental to the nation's good (such as refusing to wear masks or get vaccinated) way too frequently.   So is this normal or have we as a society become more selfish and self-centered and are trying to hide it under the banner of "freedom"?


It just seems to me the nation did a lot more sacrificing and pulling together for the common good during WW2 than we have through this Covid crisis.

[MightyGiants]

What if there is a legitimate reason for his not taking the vaccine, as in he has underlying medical conditions that could potentially be exacerbated by the vaccine, or worse, cause him to die?

In his particular case, the vaccine could be deadlier than the virus itself, hypothetically, of course.

To the best of my knowledge, there is only a very tiny portion of the population who potentially shouldn't get the vaccine.  There are those such as immunocompromised where the vaccine might not work, but I am unaware of conditions where the CDC is saying it's safer to risk Covid rather than the vaccine.  That's not to say some doctors haven't created their own personal standards that are not supported by the CDC

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/covid-19-vaccines-us.html#underlying-conditions

[jimmyz]

Bob,

There is very little difference, in my opinion, between Phizer and Moderna.  They both use the same technology.   So I will usually read any news on Pfizer or Moderna as applying to both.


As for the freedom aspect, I have to ask you guys-   Why are there helmet laws for motorcycles?

Insurance companies say so...that's why.

[T200]

To the best of my knowledge, there is only a very tiny portion of the population who potentially shouldn't get the vaccine.  There are those such as immunocompromised where the vaccine might not work, but I am unaware of conditions where the CDC is saying it's safer to risk Covid rather than the vaccine.  That's not to say some doctors haven't created their own personal standards that are not supported by the CDC

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/covid-19-vaccines-us.html#underlying-conditions

I just spoke to a long-time friend of mine last night. He shared with me that his older sister recently passed within days of receiving the second Moderna shot. She had no known health issues aside from musculoskeletal ailments from her time in the military. She was in her late 50s and was absolutely fine after the first dose and the 4 weeks in between. Four days after the second dose, she passed.

[MightyGiants]

I just spoke to a long-time friend of mine last night. He shared with me that his older sister recently passed within days of receiving the second Moderna shot. She had no known health issues aside from musculoskeletal ailments from her time in the military. She was in her late 50s and was absolutely fine after the first dose and the 4 weeks in between. Four days after the second dose, she passed.

I would be curious what the autopsy reveals.  When you try and vaccinate an entire population there are going to be deaths after getting the vaccine that is unrelated.  I am not saying that they are all unrelated, but when you start vaccinating well over 100 million people the odds are good there will be some coincidental deaths.   

On the plus side, I know the government is doing an excellent job tracking and investigating any adverse reactions.



Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 331 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 6, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 5,946 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it

[T200]

I would be curious what the autopsy reveals.  When you try and vaccinate an entire population there are going to be deaths after getting the vaccine that is unrelated.  I am not saying that they are all unrelated, but when you start vaccinating well over 100 million people the odds are good there will be some coincidental deaths.   

On the plus side, I know the government is doing an excellent job tracking and investigating any adverse reactions.

Right, I agree that there will be some unrelated and related deaths.

My initial response to Squibber was that there could be a very legitimate reason for the stranger in the restaurant to have refused the vaccine, not so much as to thumb his nose at others but to preserve his own life as much as possible.

I don't begrudge anyone refusing the vaccine. I also don't assume that they are inconsiderate, selfish, or uncaring about their fellow man/woman if they choose not to vaccinate.

Here's an interesting article on mRNA and Moderna's testing to use it against the flu as well:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07/mrna-vaccine-technology-moves-to-flu-moderna-says-trial-has-begun/

[MightyGiants]

Right, I agree that there will be some unrelated and related deaths.

My initial response to Squibber was that there could be a very legitimate reason for the stranger in the restaurant to have refused the vaccine, not so much as to thumb his nose at others but to preserve his own life as much as possible.

I don't begrudge anyone refusing the vaccine. I also don't assume that they are inconsiderate, selfish, or uncaring about their fellow man/woman if they choose not to vaccinate.

Here's an interesting article on mRNA and Moderna's testing to use it against the flu as well:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07/mrna-vaccine-technology-moves-to-flu-moderna-says-trial-has-begun/

The argument suggesting one is preserving life misses the comparative risk issue.    When you evaluate risk, you need to consider the alternative.  It's not like people are sitting safe at home and just going out and taking on the minute risk of the vaccine.   Rather they are at risk of catching and being crippled by or killed by Covid.     

It's like saying sky diving is dangerous.  However, if you are in a plane that is crashing, jumping out and using a parachute is the better choice

Another analogy would be electrical storms.   Being outside in one is dangerous.  However, if the house you are in is on fire, it's safer to go outside into the storm than staying in the house that is on fire.

[T200]

The argument suggesting one is preserving life misses the comparative risk issue.    When you evaluate risk, you need to consider the alternative.  It's not like people are sitting safe at home and just going out and taking on the minute risk of the vaccine.   Rather they are at risk of catching and being crippled by or killed by Covid.     

It's like saying sky diving is dangerous.  However, if you are in a plane that is crashing, jumping out and using a parachute is the better choice

Another analogy would be electrical storms.   Being outside in one is dangerous.  However, if the house you are in is on fire, it's safer to go outside into the storm than staying in the house that is on fire.

Let's be real here, though. We're talking self-preservation above all others. Those who have elected to take the vaccine have done so for their own health first, which also benefits others.

In your plane/parachute analogy as it relates to the vaccines, let's not leave out that some of those parachutes may be faulty and you know you could be grabbing one that doesn't open. You're taking a chance either way. I believe that, along with the distrust of science/media/government, is a big reason why some choose not to get vaccinated. They'd rather bet on surviving the crash landing than potentially grabbing a working chute.

[MightyGiants]

Tim, just to put the odds in perspective.    The number of cases of Covid worldwide is roughly equal to the number of Americans who have received at least one dose of the vaccine:

Deaths who MIGHT have died the vaccine-  5,946 people

Deaths from Covid-  Over 4 million people

[y_so_blu]

I am grateful to previous generations of Americans for going out and getting themselves vaccinated for smallpox and polio. Because they took action, those diseases which once afflicted millions are all but gone from developed societies. They did their part; now it's our turn. I got a vaccine as soon as it was available.

[T200]

Tim, just to put the odds in perspective.    The number of cases of Covid worldwide is roughly equal to the number of Americans who have received at least one dose of the vaccine:

Deaths who MIGHT have died the vaccine-  5,946 people

Deaths from Covid-  Over 4 million people

Rich,

First, you can add "MIGHT" for deaths from COVID as well, as we don't know that COVID actually killed them or if it was just the breeze that pushed them over.

Second, you don't have to convince me - I'm all for it. Hell, if they determine that future prevention would entail an annual vaccine, I'm there.

My point is that outside of life and death, there are no absolutes. I understand the reluctance to getting vaccinated. I don't agree with all the reasons that I've heard but in the end it doesn't matter whether I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with someone else's choice to get vaccinated.

Our youngest son doesn't want to get vaccinated because, in his words, "they came out with it too fast and I don't want to be a guinea pig for anyone." My response to him was, "you've been vaping for a number of years... you're already a guinea pig." In the end, it's still his choice. He still lives with us. My wife and I are both vaccinated (Pfizer for her, Moderna for me) and he wears a mask when he's out in public. I only point out the fallacy in his reason but he still has to own it. We encourage him to do the right thing and make good decisions. We can only hope and pray that he does.

It's not a guarantee that an unvaccinated person WILL get COVID and WILL pass it to someone else and THEY WILL DIE. It's a possibility. But the possibility also exists that it won't happen.

[T200]

Certainly, they have a right not to be vaccinated, but the hospital also has the right to fire them because of that fact, and a judge and the courts agree.

The employer sets conditions of employment. If the employee or prospective employee does not meet those conditions, they are subject to dismissal. In healthcare, they have to maintain certain certifications and annual training in order to meet other conditions of employment. I can see other hospitals making COVID vaccines mandatory as well.