Quick question re: Kadarius Toney

[kingm56]

King: I'm not going to pick on minor details in your post (for example, polio actually still exists today, as you probably know; it even says so in the link you posted) but rather attempt to answer your question.

You misconceive my point.  It was not to equate the two subjects (as we both know, they are not equal) but rather to INTENTIONALLY AND UNFAIRLY present a conundrum to the poster.

My purpose was to illustrate as best as I could how it must feel for Toney to hear other people say they have a RIGHT to judge how he makes a serious and important medical decision.

As we both know, the vaccine is very effective. A person who's fully vaccinated (as I am) has decided it's better/safer for them to take the tiny risk that the vaccination will produce a bad result than to risk getting covid.

But I'm an old man at greater risk than Toney of dying from the disease.  Toney may well have decided that FOR HIM, the risk of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine is greater than the risk of dying from the virus.

The attempt to shame, bully or simply cajole other people with regard to making difficult personal medical decisions is a VERY slippery slope. I believe we cannot allow that to happen and still have a "free" country.

If we can be "forced" to take a vaccine, maybe we can also be forced to have medical experimentation done on our bodies.  I don't think we should go down that road, today or ever.  Hope that answers your question.

Bob

Bob, I have immense respect for you, my friend.  I have no desire to quibble with someone so kind and open-minded. I'll admit to some bias on this subject as I lost my dad to Covid, having watched him on a ventilator for almost 30-days before his organs finally succumbed to the virus.  He was unable to take a vaccine due to medical complications; so, he was forced to rely on others executing good judgment. The same is simply not true for abortions.  Regardless, I'll leave it there, my friend....I have no desire to argue with you. 

[Bob In PA]

Bob, I have immense respect for you, my friend.  I have no desire to quibble with someone so kind and open-minded. I'll admit to some bias on this subject as I lost my dad to Covid, having watched him on a ventilator for almost 30-days before his organs finally succumbed to the virus.  He was unable to take a vaccine due to medical complications; so, he was forced to rely on others executing good judgment. The same is simply not true for abortions.  Regardless, I'll leave it there, my friend....I have no desire to argue with you.

king: Situations like your dad's (my condolences) represent the strongest argument for requiring as many folks as possible to be vaccinated. I strongly favor it (as you do) but have trouble forcing it on anyone. Bob

[DaveBrown74]

I am very sorry about your Father, King. I can't begin to imagine how difficult for everyone involved that must have been.

[MightyGiants]

Rich: Apples and oranges.  Bob

Not exactly, working out helps Toney's contribution to the team, just like getting the vaccine.   

[TDToomer]

king: Situations like your dad's (my condolences) represent the strongest argument for requiring as many folks as possible to be vaccinated. I strongly favor it (as you do) but have trouble forcing it on anyone. Bob

You are pro-vaccinations yet you trash my opinion that Toney's decision not to get one is bad for team and reflects poorly on him. OK then.   

[MightyGiants]

You are pro-vaccinations yet you trash my opinion that Toney's decision not to get one is bad for team and reflects poorly on him. OK then.

It's sort of interesting.  You have people who have gotten the vaccine and realize on a rational level that people should be vaccinated.  Yet, they still like to romance those making the bad and dangerous decision not to get vaccinated as some sort of rebel or freedom fighter.

Since as a society our goal should be to maximize the number of vaccinated and we would like to do it without forcing people to do so, I am surprised so many are taking the very effective tool of peer pressure off the table

[Bob In PA]

It's sort of interesting.  You have people who have gotten the vaccine and realize on a rational level that people should be vaccinated.  Yet, they still like to romance those making the bad and dangerous decision to get vaccinated as some sort of rebel or freedom fighter.

Since as a society our goal should be to maximize the number of vaccinated and we would like to do it without forcing people to do so, I am surprised so many are taking the very effective tool of peer pressure off the table

Rich: You use the word "bad" as though you believe your judgment is infallible. Forcing your views on other people seldom works. The best you can do is provide guidance and cross fingers. I speak as a parent. LOL  Bob

[Slugsy-Narrows]

PSU:  I see where you're coming from, and I see you bending over backwards to be reasonable and thoughtful, but I can't agree at this time.  We don't know the long-term effects, especially on children. 

IMO, we must wait until enough time has passed to allow us to observe and study long-term consequences (if any) to everyone, but especially to kids. In particular, what is the optimal age at which it should be given?

As you probably know, this type of vaccine is unlike any other that has ever been mass-distributed in all of human history.  It is not a simple cure, like the polio vaccine (for example), but works in a different way.

Bob

Bob

Agreed.  The vaccine our kids are given were not created in months.  They were created, Studied and approved after YEARS AND YEARS of development and testing. 

To start sticking out children with something we don

[kingm56]

I am very sorry about your Father, King. I can't begin to imagine how difficult for everyone involved that must have been.

Thanks, Dave; this will be the first football season without him.  I'm sure many here experienced something similar as the love of football (giants) is typically passed on to us from our parents. I know I did my fatherly duties as my son is a 4th generation Giants fan...I feel I've made my contributions to society.     

[Slugsy-Narrows]

Bob, I have immense respect for you, my friend.  I have no desire to quibble with someone so kind and open-minded. I'll admit to some bias on this subject as I lost my dad to Covid, having watched him on a ventilator for almost 30-days before his organs finally succumbed to the virus.  He was unable to take a vaccine due to medical complications; so, he was forced to rely on others executing good judgment. The same is simply not true for abortions.  Regardless, I'll leave it there, my friend....I have no desire to argue with you.

King

My deepest condolences for your loss.  It is why I do believe for those at the highest risk this vaccine that was developed in amazing time should be taken for those that want it.  I think it

[Philosophers]

I get really tired of the argument, "personal freedom and choice matters most."  We live in a society and as such, we need to follow logical rules to co-exist.  I hate what I call the affluent hippie Marin County argument anti-vaccination folks saying kids get too many vaccinations which they think is risky, yet they want them to interact with society.  Sorry they can't have it both ways.  If they want to be part of society, they need to get vaccinated.  If they don't want to get them vaccinated, then let them create their own self-isolated society.

Same with Anti-Covid vaccine folks.  We live in a shared society.  We need to work together to protect each other.  The numbers are so overwhelmingly clear that anti-vaccine folks are the vast, vast majority (something between 95% - 99%) of those getting Covid now and the highly risky Delta variant and causing these spikes.  Personal freedom?  Think the vaccine is risky yet you may drink alcohol, eat unhealthy food, smoke cigarettes yet those are ok?  Give me a break.  Get the damn shot and think of others before yourself.  Sorry to all for this rant.

[MightyGiants]

Rich: You use the word "bad" as though you believe your judgment is infallible. Forcing your views on other people seldom works. The best you can do is provide guidance and cross fingers. I speak as a parent. LOL  Bob

I keep forgetting you don't believe in science, medicine, or experts.    This isn't my "opinion" this is the conclusion of scientists, doctors, and public health experts.  My "opinion" is that we should follow science, fact, and reason"

If the WW 2 generation was the greatest generation, imagine this would be the crap generation. 

Imagine being drafted-   "don't tell me what to do.  FREEDOM!!!"  "People have the right to do whatever they want, including not serving in the draft!!!"

Imagine asking being to save gasoline and other critical war supplies-  "don't tell me what to do.  FREEDOM!!! as they go for a needless trip just to spite"  "It's hasn't been proven you need fuel or the war effort!"

Imagine telling people "loose lips sink ships"-  "FREEDOM!!!" "I am going to tell anyone I want what I want"  "Besides what proof do you have?!?!?  My Cousin gave this German all the allied shipping schedules and half of those ships still made it to England!"

King

My deepest condolences for your loss.  It is why I do believe for those at the highest risk this vaccine that was developed in amazing time should be taken for those that want it.  I think it

[Slugsy-Narrows]

It's sort of interesting.  You have people who have gotten the vaccine and realize on a rational level that people should be vaccinated.  Yet, they still like to romance those making the bad and dangerous decision not to get vaccinated as some sort of rebel or freedom fighter.

Since as a society our goal should be to maximize the number of vaccinated and we would like to do it without forcing people to do so, I am surprised so many are taking the very effective tool of peer pressure off the table

Rich

This isn

[MightyGiants]

I get really tired of the argument, "personal freedom and choice matters most."  We live in a society and as such, we need to follow logical rules to co-exist.  I hate what I call the affluent hippie Marin County argument anti-vaccination folks saying kids get too many vaccinations which they think is risky, yet they want them to interact with society.  Sorry they can't have it both ways.  If they want to be part of society, they need to get vaccinated.  If they don't want to get them vaccinated, then let them create their own self-isolated society.

Same with Anti-Covid vaccine folks.  We live in a shared society.  We need to work together to protect each other.  The numbers are so overwhelmingly clear that anti-vaccine folks are the vast, vast majority (something between 95% - 99%) of those getting Covid now and the highly risky Delta variant and causing these spikes.  Personal freedom?  Think the vaccine is risky yet you may drink alcohol, eat unhealthy food, smoke cigarettes yet those are ok?  Give me a break.  Get the damn shot and think of others before yourself.  Sorry to all for this rant.

Well said!!!   

[kingm56]

Bob

Agreed.  The vaccine our kids are given were not created in months.  They were created, Studied and approved after YEARS AND YEARS of development and testing. 

To start sticking out children with something we don