Aug 6, 1945

[LennG]

77 years ago today the world entered into the nuclear age with the atomic bomb being dropped on Hiroshima.

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/atomic-bomb-hiroshima

A good topic for discussion as many condemned the USA for the wanton killing of over 100,000 innocent civilians and then did it again, at Nagasaki 3 days later.

In my very humble mind, the act by then-new president Truman was one of the biggest decisions an American President ever had to make and it was the right one. The US had prevailed upon Japan to surrender or face the worst ever consequences, and, as we know, they refused.
We were already preparing to invade Japan and they would have cost the USA untold deaths and casualties.

As I said, many condemned Truman and the US for this action, but it WAs the right decision.

[DaveBrown74]

Fascinating subject, and one I would like to become more educated on because I feel like I only know the basics. I have studied much of WW2 in considerable detail, but the atom bomb decision is one I would like to pursue in greater depth than I have to this point.

One book that is on my list of books to read that is supposed to be magnificent is "Truman" by David McCullough. It is a biography of Truman's life that is over 1100 pages but, according to what I have gathered, including from a trusted friend, it is well worth it. Once I get around to it, which I will at some point, I will report back if it's as good as it is cracked up to be.

[LennG]

From what I've read and learned, Truman knew he would take tremendous heat, both positive and negative when he gave the order to drop the bomb.
Again, just from my knowledge, at the time, we only had the two bombs ready and if Japan didn't surrender after the second, Truman bluffed that there would be more, but he knew there wasn't another, at least for a while, and the invasion would have taken place anyway. It all worked out for the best, at least for us, that Japan finally surrendered.

Not to change anything here, but years ago, while I worked I used to listen to a walkman (remember those) and I always listened to Imus in the morning. He was mostly fluff and stuff, but he was truly a great interviewer. One morning he had on the Captain of the plane which dropped the second bomb, on Nagasaki. He had written a book on it and he was on to promote it. That interview lasted about 45 minutes without a commercial and it might have been the most fascinating interview I have ever listened to. I forgot the Captain's name, but the story he told of being on the runway, waiting to take off, supposed to go to a different target but it was cloudy so it was changed to Nagasaki, dropping the bomb and having to make a certain turn to get out of the way of the shockwave. The most interesting thing he said, he went to visit Nagasaki about 3 weeks after the bomb, Japan had surrendered and he wanted to see the damage. He said he asked his fellow officers if he should wear his side gun, and they told him, what for, there is nothing left down there.

[MightyGiants]

Frankly, I think when you talk about the moral and ethical implications of using the atomic bombs, it's creating a two narrow lens to view the issue.  In my opinion, you really need to consider the moral and ethical implications of targeting civilian populations in general.  After all, this was hardly the only attack that killed civilians.  In fact, it's not even the most devastating attack.   That honor goes to the firebombing of Tokyo.  Plus, German civilians were also killed in the US and British raids.   

I guess if you really want to put a fine point on it, it's a question of the use of an atomic bomb and the choice to target a city.   So you consider those in the context of how the war was waged, as well as considering the bigger picture of how the war was waged and was such tactics morally justified?

[Ed Vette]

Frankly, I think when you talk about the moral and ethical implications of using the atomic bombs, it's creating a two narrow lens to view the issue.  In my opinion, you really need to consider the moral and ethical implications of targeting civilian populations in general.  After all, this was hardly the only attack that killed civilians.  In fact, it's not even the most devastating attack.   That honor goes to the firebombing of Tokyo.  Plus, German civilians were also killed in the US and British raids.   

I guess if you really want to put a fine point on it, it's a question of the use of an atomic bomb and the choice to target a city.   So you consider those in the context of how the war was waged, as well as considering the bigger picture of how the war was waged and was such tactics morally justified?

I was young and about 19 years old and meeting the father of a girl I was dating for the first time and oddly he asked me that question about the dropping of the atomic bombs. My response was that it saved lives.

In retrospect, it was a heinous act not only of huge moral and ethical consideration but the ensuing consequences of the threat of mass destruction in the lives of everyday society.

It's hard if not impossible to see the end game by changing history. It's not hard to imagine the destruction on a global scale that would wipe out civilization as we know it. 

[LennG]

 Maybe I am not understand something here, are you saying it was wrong to drop those bombs?

If so, would it have been better to have us invade Japan and end up having maybe
 a million casualties because that was the estimate that Truman got when he inquired about it?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/us-invasion-japan-would-have-left-maybe-millions-dead-185884#:~:text=The%20result%20was%20more%20than%2050%2C000%20U.S.%20casualties%2C,would%20have%20made%20Okinawa%20look%20like%20a%20picnic.

As I said, it was a no-win choice for Truman, and he showed tremendous courage when he decided to do what he did. Japan was the enemy, he gave them every chance to surrender, yet they refused. Whatever the consequences, Truman did the right thing--American lives, at that time, were much more important than the enemies.
And, does anyone really believe,had Germany or Japan had their own nuclear weapon, they wouldn't have used it?

[jimv]

I was young and about 19 years old and meeting the father of a girl I was dating for the first time and oddly he asked me that question about the dropping of the atomic bombs. My response was that it saved lives... 

Ed, I never realized that you're older than I.  If you were 19 the day the BOMB was dropped, that means you were born in 1926 & are now 96 years old.  Are you sure about this?

[jimv]

I was in the sixth grade when this occurred.  To be perfectly honest, all I knew was that it would likely close out the war.  It made me happy since my brother was on a destroyer heading out toward Japan at the time.

But, at this point in my life, I can look at with the knowledge of a full life.  To be perfectly honest, I still think we didn't know the power we had in our hands at that time. All we knew was that we had an unbelievable weapon to destroy mightily.  An invasion of Japan would've been the most costly loss of lives in world history.  Truman made the only decision he could make.  It's sad that it actually took two bombings to make Japan realize the obvious.

[Slugsy-Narrows]

Japan was not going to surrender at this point.

A ground invasion into Japan would have cost more American lives then we could truly understand at that time.  Would have been more they predict then we lost through the whole wars. The surrounding islands had been entrenched for ages!  This would have been a ground fight the likes we never had seen before and may not have been winnable.  Would have made D-Day look like a picnic!

It was the right decision!

In war American lives comes first and to hell with the others!  Some bleeding hearts may not like that statement but to bad it's fact!

The first bomb was the right call!  The 2nd one there is controversy on, with the various things I have read.   Some say the Japanese were already in talks to surrender.  Others say it was the deciding factor.

End of the day war is ugly!  Civilian casualties are a part of it!  Sad to say!   

Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.  Many Americans lost their lives.  They brought war to us, we ended it!

That's all that matters!

We don't speak German or Japanese!  We are still the USA!  We have our freedoms and the constitution is our way of life!

Period, end of  story and if that is something you aren't happy and doesn't align with your values, then pick another country you feel aligns with your values and feel free to move there as no one forces you to stay here and see if you are happier!!!

What is done is done!  We won!  That's all that matters in my eyes!


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[jimv]

Way to go Slugsy!!!!!!

[MightyGiants]

Japan was not going to surrender at this point.

A ground invasion into Japan would have cost more American lives then we could truly understand at that time.  Would have been more they predict then we lost through the whole wars. The surrounding islands had been entrenched for ages!  This would have been a ground fight the likes we never had seen before and may not have been winnable.  Would have made D-Day look like a picnic!

It was the right decision!

In war American lives comes first and to hell with the others!  Some bleeding hearts may not like that statement but to bad it's fact!

The first bomb was the right call!  The 2nd one there is controversy on, with the various things I have read.   Some say the Japanese were already in talks to surrender.  Others say it was the deciding factor.

End of the day war is ugly!  Civilian casualties are a part of it!  Sad to say!   

Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.  Many Americans lost their lives.  They brought war to us, we ended it!

That's all that matters!

We don't speak German or Japanese!  We are still the USA!  We have our freedoms and the constitution is our way of life!

Period, end of  story and if that is something you aren't happy and doesn't align with your values, then pick another country you feel aligns with your values and feel free to move there as no one forces you to stay here and see if you are happier!!!

What is done is done!  We won!  That's all that matters in my eyes!


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Interesting, the thing that I find most fascinating is with the exception of the starting of military aggression, what you wrote could have just as easily been written by a German or Japanese person had they won the war.

In the end, much of what is bad in our nation and the world is due to this belief:

We won!  That's all that matters in my eyes!

The end (often meaning forcing one's beliefs on others) justifies the means and has been the root cause of so much of what has been bad throughout the history of mankind.  Might makes right is how dictators are born and wars start

Paul, ethics, and morals should not be the exclusive preview of Americans you hate (the "bleeding hearts" as you so condescendingly called them) but are something all people should abide by.  Every person on the planet should abide by the golden rule of do unto others.   People should try empathy rather than screwing over and even killing others while claiming they are doing it under the false banner of either "freedom" or the "constitution" (as that has proven almost never to be the case).

Paul (and to the posters that support his statement) this country and the world needs more empathy and kindness.  It needs more justice and tolerance.  What we don't need is more hate-filled rants wrapped in false patriotic wrappers.  We can have INTELLIGENT and NUANCED conversations about the killing of hundreds of thousands of people without going into the toxic pit of nationalism and hatred/intolerance for others.

[Slugsy-Narrows]

Interesting, the thing that I find most fascinating is with the exception of the starting of military aggression, what you wrote could have just as easily been written by a German or Japanese person had they won the war.

In the end, much of what is bad in our nation and the world is due to this belief:

The end (often meaning forcing one's beliefs on others) justifies the means and has been the root cause of so much of what has been bad throughout the history of mankind.  Might makes right is how dictators are born and wars start

Paul, ethics, and morals should not be the exclusive preview of Americans you hate (the "bleeding hearts" as you so condescendingly called them) but are something all people should abide by.  Every person on the planet should abide by the golden rule of do unto others.   People should try empathy rather than screwing over and even killing others while claiming they are doing it under the false banner of either "freedom" or the "constitution" (as that has proven almost never to be the case).

Paul (and to the posters that support his statement) this country and the world needs more empathy and kindness.  It needs more justice and tolerance.  What we don't need is more hate-filled rants wrapped in false patriotic wrappers.  We can have INTELLIGENT and NUANCED conversations about the killing of hundreds of thousands of people without going into the toxic pit of nationalism and hatred/intolerance for others.

No it doesn't!


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[MightyGiants]

No it doesn't!


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Wow! I never saw someone openly argue against kindness, justice, empathy, morals/ethics, and tolerance.  Then again, these days, nothing really shocks me anymore.

[Slugsy-Narrows]

Wow! I never saw someone openly argue against kindness, justice, empathy, morals/ethics, and tolerance.  Then again, these days, nothing really shocks me anymore.

This wasn't tiddlywinks it was war!  Life & death! 

You had a nation attack ours and start it.  We didn't start it, we finished it and lost enough brave men and women in the process!   War isn't pretty and it's sad that many innocents lost their lives in Japan.  Just as many in Europe did when it was bombed.  The Japanese weren't going to surrender.  It saved lives on our side which matters more in war and saved potentially years on the war.


Feelings and empathy have ZERO CONCERN when war is concerned.  Those that fight that way won't win, cause the other side isn't thinking that way! 


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[Ed Vette]

Interesting, the thing that I find most fascinating is with the exception of the starting of military aggression, what you wrote could have just as easily been written by a German or Japanese person had they won the war.

In the end, much of what is bad in our nation and the world is due to this belief:

The end (often meaning forcing one's beliefs on others) justifies the means and has been the root cause of so much of what has been bad throughout the history of mankind.  Might makes right is how dictators are born and wars start

Paul, ethics, and morals should not be the exclusive preview of Americans you hate (the "bleeding hearts" as you so condescendingly called them) but are something all people should abide by.  Every person on the planet should abide by the golden rule of do unto others.   People should try empathy rather than screwing over and even killing others while claiming they are doing it under the false banner of either "freedom" or the "constitution" (as that has proven almost never to be the case).

Paul (and to the posters that support his statement) this country and the world needs more empathy and kindness.  It needs more justice and tolerance.  What we don't need is more hate-filled rants wrapped in false patriotic wrappers.  We can have INTELLIGENT and NUANCED conversations about the killing of hundreds of thousands of people without going into the toxic pit of nationalism and hatred/intolerance for others.

America love it or leave it if you don't agree with me. Lol

Rich, I think we both agree and are sending the same message here but if I was in Truman's shoes at that time and faced with those decisions, I may have made the same decision to protect a nation. The responsibility was of enormous consequences.

Whenever civilians become the casualty of war it's tragic. It was tragic on 9-11. Which led to the lives of more innocent people to the tune of 200K in Iraq. Over 3000 in Afghanistan. 5K so far in Ukraine. They become numbers but someone, somewhere grieved a child, brother, sister, father or mother.

There's a scene in the movie swordfish when talking about what it takes to protect a nation.

"Anyone who impinges on America's freedom. Terrorist states, Stanley. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb ten. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourists, we tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that it becomes unthinkable to attack Americans."