Time for a serious, no-spin conversation about Daniel Jones

[Jclayton92]

Don't laugh at me, but I thought Baker or even Rodgers could have been brought in to do something similar this year.  I still somewhat feel that way, nvmd the Achilles, but this team does have myriad issues. I just think QB is the most glaring.

882 yards 7 tds 2 int 101.5 qb rating.

Bakers not playing bad ball right now

[Jclayton92]

I think this touches on what is so perplexing about Jones:  By all accounts he is very intelligent.   But for some reason he seems to have mental blocks on some football basics. 

You see the physical ability at times and you know the guy is smart, but it seems like there are mental aspects of the game the elude him.  Is he permanently rattled? 

If he is, not much anyone can do. 

Just my opinion but I think he's Sam Darnold broken and I don't think he gets fixed without a change of scenery.

[nb587]

Which I imagine they decided because it was the only way to keep Barkley too.  Which they only wanted to do because they felt that they could build off of last season and possibly contend this year, one year ahead of schedule.  But clearly that was a miscalculation.  In retrospect probably best to have just let them both walk, suffered through a miserable season (we're doing that anyway) and put yourself in position to draft caleb williams while using the Jones money to fortify the rest of the roster that's clearly not good enough.

Your comments following the words in retrospect are the very definition of Monday morning QB.  How do you think fans here and elsewhere would have reacted if the Giants basically started from scratch after winning a playoff game.  Putting us in a position to draft Caleb Williams means something like winning 1-2 games, maybe none the way the Bears are playing.  With PSLs and very expensive ticket prices and parking, etc plus a meddling owner, coming off the first successful season in a long time, how do you tear it down.  Winning made Schoen's job, oddly enough, much harder.

The move to make, in my opinion, should have been made by Gettleman by drafting Herbert and trading Jones coming off a decent rookie year when he may have had value.  To me, a QB like Herbert would have set the franchise up for years.

[Rambo89]

The move to make, in my opinion, should have been made by Gettleman by drafting Herbert and trading Jones coming off a decent rookie year when he may have had value.  To me, a QB like Herbert would have set the franchise up for years.

Or they just should have passed on overreaching for Daniel Jones in 2019 either using the 6th overall pick that year to fill another need or traded down then waited until 2020 to take Herbert.  Instead they forced the QB pick in 2019 because Daniel Jones has Eli's personality and was coached by his coach.

[Gmo11]

Your comments following the words in retrospect are the very definition of Monday morning QB.  How do you think fans here and elsewhere would have reacted if the Giants basically started from scratch after winning a playoff game.  Putting us in a position to draft Caleb Williams means something like winning 1-2 games, maybe none the way the Bears are playing.  With PSLs and very expensive ticket prices and parking, etc plus a meddling owner, coming off the first successful season in a long time, how do you tear it down.  Winning made Schoen's job, oddly enough, much harder.

The move to make, in my opinion, should have been made by Gettleman by drafting Herbert and trading Jones coming off a decent rookie year when he may have had value.  To me, a QB like Herbert would have set the franchise up for years.

Seems you missed the "in retrospect" portion of what I wrote.  Obviously this is hindsight...that's exactly the point.  In the moment, sure they can easily be sucked into believing they're the best GM/Coach combo in the history of football and sure they can turn this ship around in one season.  But as it turns out the original plan of 2024 was probably a little more prudent given the results that we've seen.

It would have been a tough pill to swallow after a playoff win to let Jones and Barkley walk.  There are a large number of fans who'd have lost their collective minds over doing something like that.  What I'm saying is, they should have done it anyway.  Because it would have been the best move for the future of the team even if it wasn't the best move for the 2023 Giants chances of success.  Although after what we've seen maybe it would have been that too.

You say the move was to draft Herbert...which is a bit of monday morning QB in it of itself, no?  But also something I agree with and stated at the time.  Although I was advocating they not draft Jones at all and just simply wait a year when Herbert/Tua would both be coming out and that was before Joe Burrow burst on the scene.  Jones' year was an awful year for QB.  So naturally the smartest guy in the room, David football Gettleman, decided that was the time to take one. 

Having said that, once you draft Jones you can't trade him the very next season unless he starts showing up to work without pants on or something.  Certainly not based on play or the fact that significantly better QBs are available the following season.  You'd look like the dope we all know Gettleman to be for not waiting and well know he'd never stand for that.

[madbadger]

After reading the story of opposing coaches opinion on Jones it's time to move on. I feel bad for him because Mara and the men he hired failed him miserably.

At this point it is what it is. He is a bad NFL quarterback. Opposing coaches are pointing it out, opposing players have said so, and I might add very publicly as well as former players, including quarterbacks. Everyone is pointing out just how bad he really is.

This coming draft is the single best qb draft in 30 years. We need to draft his replacement in the first round if we are to have any hope at not wasting the next decade. I say that as a guy who has been very vocal about giving Jones a fair chance to prove we are wrong about him. I simply can no longer ignore the mountains of evidence that he just isn't good. It's time.

[4 Aces]

From my seat, he's been David Carr'd.

He's taken so many savage beatings. There are games from his rookie year still on youtube. Totally different QB. You almost don't recognize him. Quicker, lighter on his feet and much more aggressive.

[Rambo89]

From my seat, he's been David Carr'd.

He's taken so many savage beatings. There are games from his rookie year still on youtube. Totally different QB. You almost don't recognize him. Quicker, lighter on his feet and much more aggressive.

When the league doesn't have the book out on you it's easy to look better than you are.  In Jones's rookie season his overall numbers were inflated by 4 games the rest he was mediocre in.  But that's typical for a rookie.  He has not made that big jump to this point in his career where we are in year 5.  I know people will point to Geno Smith who became a late bloomer but we need to keep in mind outside of his first two seasons with the Jets Geno Smith barely had any starts prior to last season.  In fact despite being the NFL double the amount of time Daniel Jones has Geno Smith has actually made fewer NFL starts than Daniel Jones.

[DaveBrown74]

QB is clearly a very hard position to get right, and yet it's so critically important. I know few will agree with this, but I sometimes think teams should draft them more often. I mean if you have a guy on a rookie deal that you picked in the top 10, until you are truly 100% certain he is definitely the guy, why not take a shot on a 2nd round guy you think is legit in the following year? I fully understand the importance of roster building, but (1) if you end up with two good QBs, that's a good problem to have, not a bad one, and (2) until you know for certain you have the next Josh Allen on your hands, the obvious reality is that you don't know. So why not continue to give yourself chances? The Eagles did exactly that with the Jalen Hurts pick. They had Wentz, who had been an MVP candidate for them at one point but had had injury issues and sporadic performance after that. So they knew about a guy they liked and they took a shot on him in the second round, trading up in the process. Fans and some media were generally critical of the move. Clearly it ended up being a lot smarter than people thought. I think there is something to be said for this approach.

[uconnjack8]

I find it perplexing because we see it sometimes but not others. 

It seems the people around him thought his football smarts were good enough to sign him to the current contract.  I dont think they were looking at his Duke transcripts for that.

I left this out when I first posted on this

There is more than 1 type of football smarts.  Jones has very limited ability to see the field and feel pressure.  Not sure if that's football smarts or feel for the game or whatever you want to call it. 

Then there is things like not getting a good pre-snap read.  Is that football intelligence or just doing the work prior to the game? 

[nb587]

Seems you missed the "in retrospect" portion of what I wrote.  Obviously this is hindsight...that's exactly the point.  In the moment, sure they can easily be sucked into believing they're the best GM/Coach combo in the history of football and sure they can turn this ship around in one season.  But as it turns out the original plan of 2024 was probably a little more prudent given the results that we've seen.

It would have been a tough pill to swallow after a playoff win to let Jones and Barkley walk.  There are a large number of fans who'd have lost their collective minds over doing something like that.  What I'm saying is, they should have done it anyway.  Because it would have been the best move for the future of the team even if it wasn't the best move for the 2023 Giants chances of success.  Although after what we've seen maybe it would have been that too.

You say the move was to draft Herbert...which is a bit of monday morning QB in it of itself, no?  But also something I agree with and stated at the time.  Although I was advocating they not draft Jones at all and just simply wait a year when Herbert/Tua would both be coming out and that was before Joe Burrow burst on the scene.  Jones' year was an awful year for QB.  So naturally the smartest guy in the room, David football Gettleman, decided that was the time to take one. 

Having said that, once you draft Jones you can't trade him the very next season unless he starts showing up to work without pants on or something.  Certainly not based on play or the fact that significantly better QBs are available the following season.  You'd look like the dope we all know Gettleman to be for not waiting and well know he'd never stand for that.

I know you weren't suggesting that they burn it down.  I think Schoen couldnt do it even if he believed it was the right thing to do.  The team was a victim of its success last year and success limited his moves this year.

I also keep coming back to drafting Jones at 6 convinced that somebody suckered Gettleman into drafting Jones too early.  That said, I believe that there are competent GMs who would have acknowledged the mistake with Jones prevented them from getting Herbert.  It would have required lots of courage but for me it was the move even if Jones steps up his game.

[Gmo11]

I know you weren't suggesting that they burn it down.  I think Schoen couldnt do it even if he believed it was the right thing to do.  The team was a victim of its success last year and success limited his moves this year.

I also keep coming back to drafting Jones at 6 convinced that somebody suckered Gettleman into drafting Jones too early.  That said, I believe that there are competent GMs who would have acknowledged the mistake with Jones prevented them from getting Herbert.  It would have required lots of courage but for me it was the move even if Jones steps up his game.

The closest example you'll find is the Cardinals moving on from Josh Rosen so quickly but that guy showed a complete incompetence of the position and may well have been a bit of a jerk on top of that.  Jones had moments his rookie season and seems to be a decent guy that works hard.  He just isn't starter material.

[Jclayton92]

At this point if a team has an injury would you be ok with trading Jones for a 4th just to get him off the books? It'd cost us 11 million the next few years but I would be fine with it. I think the Problem would be finding the team that would take him.

[madbadger]

At this point if a team has an injury would you be ok with trading Jones for a 4th just to get him off the books? It'd cost us 11 million the next few years but I would be fine with it. I think the Problem would be finding the team that would take him.

Yes. I'd even throw in our 3rd round pick to make it happen. I'd use the cap space to fix the line and use our first round pick in Jones replacements.

[DaveBrown74]

At this point if a team has an injury would you be ok with trading Jones for a 4th just to get him off the books? It'd cost us 11 million the next few years but I would be fine with it. I think the Problem would be finding the team that would take him.

I would, yes. After more than four years of watching him, I am just not of the view that he's ever going to be a top flight starter in this league. I think he's capable of being a better player than what we have seen for most of this season, but I don't view him as a top 8-10 QB. I am very much of the view that if you don't have a top 8-10 QB, you need to keep looking for one, and you should not pay a non top 10 QB big time money.

With that said, as you and others have suggested, I think it's unrealistic to think anyone is going to take him off our hands under the current terms. I think the Giants are more likely going to have to eat this $47mm hit next year. The rest of the league just doesn't value him the way the Giants have, and we are now holding the bag.