- I re-watched the first 6 games of the season - my recommendation -

[EliWasrobbed]

so just for record @sxdxca38 , you are saying PFF is WRONG and in fact Daniel Jones is not the 2nd worst QB in the NFL at picking up pressures? I would bet PFF did not record 10 of 11 of the Jones sacks that game as the Olines fault. Just a hunch. I guess you know more than PFF, and we are all just appealing to authority.

https://twitter.com/Ihartitz/status/1757465944824193328?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1757465944824193328%7Ctwgr%5E30742007569c47df21f2d76958281c7245ee50b7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fgiantsfans.net%2Fmessage_board%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D69114.0

[kingm56]

Actually, this is incorrect and here is why.

A) DJ was not sacked 11 times but 10 times in that game, one of those sacks was on Paris Campbell.

B) Second, using pundits like Dan Orlovsky and Boomer Esiason, is not doing your own research to see if these things are true. This is what is known as the "appeal to authority" and this is a logical fallacy. Just because a former player says something doesn't make it true.

And this is why I completely disagree with your statements, with regards to this game, and now I shall explain why.

You see I watched the game, the entire game, and I saw all 10 sacks and how they were attributed. Would you like to know how they came about? and the truth? Outside of one sack the other nine were all on the offensive line, and it was brutal.

Let me further elucidate.

Since you like to use pundits, I will now quote from the announcers who were actually at the game - Troy Aikman and Joe Buck -

Troy Aikman said from the opening snap that "his offensive line has struggled through three games", do you agree with him or no?

Joe Buck said in the 3rd quarter after DJ had been sacked six times, he said "There is just no time for Jones".

Joe Buck says again, "as he's ready to throw he's got 3 players in his face".

4th Quarter he's sacked for the 7th time, and Joe Buck says again, "there is just no chance for Daniel Jones."

4th Quarter again, Joe Buck says, "Jones has absolutely no time" as he's sacked for the 8th time.

OT Ezudu was run right by the DE, then Aikman says that is eight sacks on the night, this is crazy. Neither Buck nor Aikman blamed Jones, they defended him, saying he is one tough dude, and realized his O line was absolute garbage.

As Jones was sacked for the 9th time in the 4th quarter, he has absolutely no time.

Aikman begins to say "why is DJ still in the ball game?"

On his 10th sack he has absolutely no time, LT was beat again like a drum.

On his 11th sack the LT was beat badly again, keep in mind Andrew Thomas was not the starting LT.

So, since you like to quote pundits, were Aikman and Buck lying? or were they telling the truth? Please tell us all?

So once again if you want to prove me wrong, then you can go ahead and buy NFL Premium Plus like I have, and you can watch the condensed game in just 30 minutes. I did, so go ahead and do it, and show me and all of us why I am wrong?

I'll wait....

I did my own research and provided input at the appropriate time, back in October.  You're more than welcome to find that thread. I see NO reason to go back and rehash a game that occurred 6 months ago.  Ed was kind enough to provide exerts for you; hopefully that type of in-depth analysis will allow you to view this game from an alternate/more informed perspective.  I know it helped me back in Oct...

Concerning Aikman and Buck, they were watching the game live; you get an entirely different perspective after watching the tape.  Do you agree with that notion?  Obviously you do  as you bought a package to afford you the privilege. I already own the All-22 package; in fact, if you go back to September, you'll note I was encouraging everyone with disposable income to do the same.  It's worth every dime.

My goal is not to prove you wrong (with the exception of correcting the record on 6 sacks allowed); In short, I simply don't agree with a lot of your opinions and do my best to provide cogent counterpoints.  Isn't that the point of an internet discussion board? This game is no exception; I simply can't fathom how anyone who watched the All-22 tape came away without severe concerns for the starting QB. When I watched the tape, I was far more concerned about DJ's aforementioned limitations than the bad Oline.  I simply don't believe I can add anymore to the discussion than was already provided back in Oct and Ed in this thread.  I happen to agree with the latter's assessment and fundamentally disagree with your assertion that DJ is the victim of the offensive line; again, there's a symbiotic relationship between the OL and QB. I also know there's no data I can show, or analysis that will change your mind.  You believe DJ is a top 10 QB, who's held back by a poor OL, coaching, and skilled players. I simply disagree with that notion.  We can leave it at that...

[Trench]

Actually, this is incorrect and here is why.

A) DJ was not sacked 11 times but 10 times in that game, one of those sacks was on Paris Campbell.

B) Second, using pundits like Dan Orlovsky and Boomer Esiason, is not doing your own research to see if these things are true. This is what is known as the "appeal to authority" and this is a logical fallacy. Just because a former player says something doesn't make it true.

And this is why I completely disagree with your statements, with regards to this game, and now I shall explain why.

You see I watched the game, the entire game, and I saw all 10 sacks and how they were attributed. Would you like to know how they came about? and the truth? Outside of one sack the other nine were all on the offensive line, and it was brutal.

Let me further elucidate.

Since you like to use pundits, I will now quote from the announcers who were actually at the game - Troy Aikman and Joe Buck -

Troy Aikman said from the opening snap that "his offensive line has struggled through three games", do you agree with him or no?

Joe Buck said in the 3rd quarter after DJ had been sacked six times, he said "There is just no time for Jones".

Joe Buck says again, "as he's ready to throw he's got 3 players in his face".

4th Quarter he's sacked for the 7th time, and Joe Buck says again, "there is just no chance for Daniel Jones."

4th Quarter again, Joe Buck says, "Jones has absolutely no time" as he's sacked for the 8th time.

OT Ezudu was run right by the DE, then Aikman says that is eight sacks on the night, this is crazy. Neither Buck nor Aikman blamed Jones, they defended him, saying he is one tough dude, and realized his O line was absolute garbage.

As Jones was sacked for the 9th time in the 4th quarter, he has absolutely no time.

Aikman begins to say "why is DJ still in the ball game?"

On his 10th sack he has absolutely no time, LT was beat again like a drum.

On his 11th sack the LT was beat badly again, keep in mind Andrew Thomas was not the starting LT.

So, since you like to quote pundits, were Aikman and Buck lying? or were they telling the truth? Please tell us all?

So once again if you want to prove me wrong, then you can go ahead and buy NFL Premium Plus like I have, and you can watch the condensed game in just 30 minutes. I did, so go ahead and do it, and show me and all of us why I am wrong?

I'll wait....

He does lock on his receivers right?

What if he doesn't improve upon this?

The playoff games this year stated over and over how big plays only happened when the QB moved his eyes.

[Ed Vette]

I did my own research and provided input at the appropriate time, back in October.  You're more than welcome to find that thread. I see NO reason to go back and rehash a game that occurred 6 months ago.  Ed was kind enough to provide exerts for you; hopefully that type of in-depth analysis will allow you to view this game from an alternate/more informed perspective.  I know it helped me back in Oct...

Concerning Aikman and Buck, they were watching the game live; you get an entirely different perspective after watching the tape.  Do you agree with that notion?  Obviously you do  as you bought a package to afford you the privilege. I already own the All-22 package; in fact, if you go back to September, you'll note I was encouraging everyone with disposable income to do the same.  It's worth every dime.

My goal is not to prove you wrong (with the exception of correcting the record on 6 sacks allowed); In short, I simply don't agree with a lot of your opinions and do my best to provide cogent counterpoints.  Isn't that the point of an internet discussion board? This game is no exception; I simply can't fathom how anyone who watched the All-22 tape came away from that game blaming the Oline. When I watched the tape, I was far more concerned about DJ's aforementioned limitations.  I simply don't believe I can add anymore to the discussion than was already provided back in Oct and Ed in this thread.  I happen to agree with the latter's assessment and fundamentally disagree with your assertion the sacks are primary the offensive lines' fault; again, there's a symbiotic relationship between the OL and QB.  I also know there's no data I can show, or analysis that will change your mind.  You believe DJ is a top 10 QB, who's held back by a poor OL and WRs.  I simply disagree with that notion.  We can leave it at that...

Unfortunately, it appears that he's simply looking for replies that validate or agree with him. He's responded several times initially that he was happy when someone agreed with him. Or her if that's the case.

Troy and Buck are closet Dallas fans and that night their comments reflected restrained jubilation. If it was Romo, he would have called a spade a spade. He at least has some integrity.

It's ironic how you're being accused of not doing your own analysis, while he touts the broadcast of Buck and Troy, not doing his own.

The fifth year QB making rookie mistakes is more than alarming and it transcends all other issues. It has nothing to do with starring down an intended Receiver or making a bad decision or checking down and missing an open Receiver downfield or throwing mechanics or taking off and running instead of waiting for a play to develop or bailing the pocket instead of stepping up to make a throw. It was all about basic pre and post-snap recognition that Daniel Jones was completely oblivious to.

He missed the obvious Safety Blitz with 18 seconds to adjust, he missed the free release edge, knowing the six Olinemen were zone blocking Weak Side and he hesitated and missed a two on one open receiver window.

Encouraging a poster to express himself and ask him to reflect on his comments is mentoring up until the point he bites back. Very disappointing.

[T200]

I did my own research and provided input at the appropriate time, back in October.  You're more than welcome to find that thread. I see NO reason to go back and rehash a game that occurred 6 months ago.  Ed was kind enough to provide exerts for you; hopefully that type of in-depth analysis will allow you to view this game from an alternate/more informed perspective.  I know it helped me back in Oct...

Concerning Aikman and Buck, they were watching the game live; you get an entirely different perspective after watching the tape.  Do you agree with that notion?  Obviously you do  as you bought a package to afford you the privilege. I already own the All-22 package; in fact, if you go back to September, you'll note I was encouraging everyone with disposable income to do the same.  It's worth every dime.

My goal is not to prove you wrong (with the exception of correcting the record on 6 sacks allowed); In short, I simply don't agree with a lot of your opinions and do my best to provide cogent counterpoints.  Isn't that the point of an internet discussion board? This game is no exception; I simply can't fathom how anyone who watched the All-22 tape came away without severe concerns for the starting QB. When I watched the tape, I was far more concerned about DJ's aforementioned limitations than the bad Oline.  I simply don't believe I can add anymore to the discussion than was already provided back in Oct and Ed in this thread.  I happen to agree with the latter's assessment and fundamentally disagree with your assertion that DJ is the victim of the offensive line; again, there's a symbiotic relationship between the OL and QB. I also know there's no data I can show, or analysis that will change your mind.  You believe DJ is a top 10 QB, who's held back by a poor OL, coaching, and skilled players. I simply disagree with that notion.  We can leave it at that...

This place would be amazing if we could get more respectful posts like this.   

Excellent response, @kingm56 

[Bob In PA]

Bob, you have to look at the entire picture, so to that point I agree but, Kelce performs because Mahomes performs. The KC Offense moves the ball also due to scheme and protections. We have to put Daboll and Kafka in the equations also, compared to Reid. So many times Jalin Hyatt was open and he never got the ball by all three QB's. I wonder how Slayton would have faired on KC. Likely a 1000 yard Receiver. See the stats I produced to Rich.

Ed: We both know all your points above are correct, but IMO they're putting the cart before the horse.

Although I continue to emphasize the need for an elite WR, the absolute top priority is to fix the OL.

If the QB doesn't have time to throw to anybody, it doesn't matter if you have an elite WR.

And if your team can't mount a serious threat to run the ball successfully, any passing attack will suffer.

As for Hyatt, unless we know the order of the QB' reads, it's tough to lay blame.

Bob

[Ed Vette]

Ed: We both know all your points above are correct, but IMO they're putting the cart before the horse.

Although I continue to emphasize the need for an elite WR, the absolute top priority is to fix the OL.

If the QB doesn't have time to throw to anybody, it doesn't matter if you have an elite WR.

And if your team can't mount a serious threat to run the ball successfully, any passing attack will suffer.

As for Hyatt, unless we know the order of the QB' reads, it's tough to lay blame.

Bob

Bob, it's not just one thing. It's a combination of things and that's my point.

[kingm56]

Ed: We both know all your points above are correct, but IMO they're putting the cart before the horse.

Although I continue to emphasize the need for an elite WR, the absolute top priority is to fix the OL.

If the QB doesn't have time to throw to anybody, it doesn't matter if you have an elite WR.

And if your team can't mount a serious threat to run the ball successfully, any passing attack will suffer.

As for Hyatt, unless we know the order of the QB' reads, it's tough to lay blame.

Bob

Bob,

I fundamentally agree the offensive line needs to be fixed; however, I do disagree the Giants' woes are solely a reflection of said line. I view the Seattle game as a microcosm of our offensive ineptitude. Yes, the OL was terrible, but the QB was equally bad and did nothing to assist his five brethren. If DJ correctly deciphers just a few blitzes, and burns the def, they may be less adapt to blitz. Considering more than 70% of Seattle sacks were tailed by the back seven, that could have gone a long way to providing the additional time you highlighted. However, our current paradigm is one where opposing defensive players openly mock DJs ability to read blitzes/defenses; in the aforementioned Seattle game, note the dbs didn't even attempt to disguise their blitzes.  Again, I'm not suggesting it's all on DJ, what I am suggesting is DJ has significant culpability for the bottom 8 offenses he's commanded during his tenure. Fixing the OL will not solve all our woes.

[Bob In PA]

Bob,

I fundamentally agree the offensive line needs to be fixed; however, I do disagree the Giants' woes are solely a reflection of said line. I view the Seattle game as a microcosm of our offensive ineptitude. Yes, the OL was terrible, but the QB was equally bad and did nothing to assist his five brethren. If DJ correctly deciphers just a few blitzes, and burns the def, they may be less adapt to blitz. Considering more than 70% of Seattle sacks were tailed by the back seven, that could have gone a long way to providing the additional time you highlighted. However, our current paradigm is one where opposing defensive players openly mock DJs ability to read blitzes/defenses; in the aforementioned Seattle game, note the dbs didn't even attempt to disguise their blitzes.  Again, I'm not suggesting it's all on DJ, what I am suggesting is DJ has significant culpability for the bottom 8 offenses he's commanded during his tenure. Fixing the OL will not solve all our woes.

king: Yes, I don't deny Jones his fair share of the blame either, but my point (on which I have been consistent, IMO, since the start of his career) is/was that he has never had either a good offensive line or an elite WR. To me, that translates into a grade of "incomplete" rather than F, D or C (all possible grades if you refuse to cut him a break). I understand the point of many that a QB drafted so high in the first round should be able to "pull the boat" (elevate the team), but to them I say... "How do you know he hasn't already been doing that?"  In other words, is it not possible that this group of WR's and OL's would have performed even worse under a lesser QB? Bob

[katkavage]

king: Yes, I don't deny Jones his fair share of the blame either, but my point (on which I have been consistent, IMO, since the start of his career) is/was that he has never had either a good offensive line or an elite WR. To me, that translates into a grade of "incomplete" rather than F, D or C (all possible grades if you refuse to cut him a break). I understand the point of many that a QB drafted so high in the first round should be able to "pull the boat" (elevate the team), but to them I say... "How do you know he hasn't already been doing that?"  In other words, is it not possible that this group of WR's and OL's would have performed even worse under a lesser QB? Bob

You might be right. You might be wrong. The quandary now is what to do for the future? Gamble that DJ will both stay healthy and upgrade his game to at least middling level, or go in another direction with a young, promising QB that can be groomed by Daboll? In either case, Jones is here for 2024, but the opportunity to pick up a promising young QB is as well and probably won't be next year. So...what to do?

[Bob In PA]

You might be right. You might be wrong. The quandary now is what to do for the future? Gamble that DJ will both stay healthy and upgrade his game to at least middling level, or go in another direction with a young, promising QB that can be groomed by Daboll? In either case, Jones is here for 2024, but the opportunity to pick up a promising young QB is as well and probably won't be next year. So...what to do?

kat: It's the health of Jones that worries me more than what I believe I know (i.e., he'll play plenty well enough to win in the NFL with a competent (and complete) supporting cast. I don't mean 10 All-Pro's on offense either... just a bunch of players in the C+ to B+ arena.  IMO, the majority of the Giants' current starting ten players on offense are about C- or C, so they've got a long way to go, IMO.  Bob

[katkavage]

Don't disagree with those grades, Bob. But Jones is a solid C or C minus in my opt. So there's that too.

[Jclayton92]

https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/2/20/24075850/nfl-com-qb-rankings-where-do-the-giants-quarterbacks-rank-amongst-all-2023-starters

Nfl.com rank qbs in 2023

Tyrod taylor 32

Tommy Devito 37

Daniel Jones 46

[sxdxca38]

The first sack it was 5 on 5 as the TE was not blocking but going out and the RB was going for a swing pass as he was set right side too but that edge had to cover him. It was clear that in Zone the Safety didn't hide he was blitzing pre-Snap. Jones should have moved the RB and it looks like it was Breda to the left side to pick him up and then hit the hot read vacated in the coverage. At that point the TE should have stayed in to block. There was 17 seconds on the clock so there was plenty of time. DJ never saw it coming but was fixed on the Swing Pass and the TE on the right side. This was all DJ's credit for the sack.

Ed,

Thank you for watching the 3 sacks and the time clips I had mentioned.

Here is what I am seeing.

With regards to the 1st sack at the 1:50 mark, DJ is getting sacked in 2 seconds.

Waller the TE wasn't even turned around yet for a 5 yard curl pass when DJ was sacked.

The RB Breida on the swing pass to the right side had a defender lined up covering him, that if DJ threw the ball to him, he could have coughed it up just like Saquon on opening night against Dallas.

Either way, in my opinion this sack was not on DJ at all, but on his Offensive line, and the lack of picking up the blitz.

[sxdxca38]

On the second sack, the QB needs to be know the blocking scheme, which I'm sure he did in a Jumbo Formation with two Tackles in the right side all blocking Zone Left. Nobody was blocking the free release on that right side and he never picked up on it. Not only that but trying to get escape he held the ball like a loaf of bread which resulted in a strip and a turnover.

Once again thank you for watching the second sack at the 2:41 mark.

Here is how I am seeing it.

Once again in less than 2 seconds, DJ is getting hit.

After he breaks the first tackle, if he throws it to Wandale on the flat down at the bottom of the screen, #20 Love is all over him, he really had nowhere to go.

As far as holding the ball like a loaf of bread, DJ was scrambling to the bottom of the screen looking down field trying to find someone open when he was strip sacked from behind.

An absolutely brutal onslaught by the Seahawks, and once again this sack was on his Offensive line, and not on him, but that is just my opinion.