New York Giants PFF offensive line rankings since 2019

[GloryDays]

Great thread and a strong and clear argument from OP SXDX...pointing to the main reason for DJ's struggles.

Those who still deny such clear stats may say that some QBs (very few) have done better with poor O line. My answer:

1- Those are rare QBs, meaning, even if you draft a good one, he might not be the rare kind, to do it behind a bad line.
2- Jones also lacked the Receivers who could run crisp routes and get open in the little time Jones had to throw.
3- Most QBs lose their confidence and focus when they are under constant pressure; so they will miss some open receivers now and then... even QBs with better lines make those mistakes and make the wrong reads now and then.

[DaveBrown74]

Well, no matter what people think, the bottom line is he'll probably be the starter again this year for much, most, or possibly all of the season if he can somehow stay healthy. The line has been materially invested in including a significant head coaching upgrade. So those who still feel unsure about him after five years will get a chance to watch him again in his sixth, with even more resources having been thrown at the line. So hopefully those folks will get some answers either way this year and won't need a 7th year.

[sxdxca38]

Great threat and a strong and clear argument from OP SXDX...pointing to the main reason for DJ's struggles.

Those who still deny such clear stats may say that some QBs (very few) have done better with poor O line. My answer:

1- Those are rare QBs, meaning, even if you draft a good one, he might not be the rare kind, to do it behind a bad line.
2- Jones also lacked the Receivers who could run crisp routes and get open in the little time Jones had to throw.
3- Most QBs lose their confidence and focus when they are under constant pressure; so they will miss some open receivers now and then... even QBs with better lines make those mistakes and make the wrong reads now and then.

Glory,

Thank you so much my friend.

[AZGiantFan]

Well, no matter what people think, the bottom line is he'll probably be the starter again this year for much, most, or possibly all of the season if he can somehow stay healthy. The line has been materially invested in including a significant head coaching upgrade. So those who still feel unsure about him after five years will get a chance to watch him again in his sixth, with even more resources having been thrown at the line. So hopefully those folks will get some answers either way this year and won't need a 7th year.

Although as we've seen for the last 10 years, throwing resources at the line doesn't necessarily translate to better line play.  I'll only believe if and when the line actually plays better.

[Philosophers]

Well, no matter what people think, the bottom line is he'll probably be the starter again this year for much, most, or possibly all of the season if he can somehow stay healthy. The line has been materially invested in including a significant head coaching upgrade. So those who still feel unsure about him after five years will get a chance to watch him again in his sixth, with even more resources having been thrown at the line. So hopefully those folks will get some answers either way this year and won't need a 7th year.

I dont think it's fair to just say they keep throwing resources at the line and he continues to get more years.  Fact is those investments in the OL have been failures.  Even Thomas cant stay healthy.  That is not a QB's fault.  Would Patrick Mahommes do better behind that OL than DJ?  Yeah probably a bit.  Would Patrick be Patrick behind that OL?  No way.

[DaveBrown74]

I dont think it's fair to just say they keep throwing resources at the line and he continues to get more years.  Fact is those investments in the OL have been failures.  Even Thomas cant stay healthy.  That is not a QB's fault.  Would Patrick Mahommes do better behind that OL than DJ?  Yeah probably a bit.  Would Patrick be Patrick behind that OL?  No way.

I'm not claiming he would be, nor do I think that.

[Philosophers]

I'm not claiming he would be, nor do I think that.

I know you are not.  My point is just changing QBs will not make much of a difference til OL is performing.

[kingm56]

The implicit notion of this thread suggest a QB is powerless to produce tangible passing metrics without an average, to above average Oline.  To test this theory, let's review the olines worse than our Giants:

 - 2020 ranked 31st
  --LAC #32 Herbert 4336 YDs 31 TDs 10 INTs 67% 98.3 RTG *Won ROY *Mult Rookie passing records
- 2021 ranked 30th
  --MIA #32 Tua 3758 YDs 16 TDs 10 INTs 68% 90.1 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 12 games)
- 2023 ranked 30th
  --SEA #31 Smith 3624 YDs 20 TDs 9 INTs 65% 92.1 RTG (Only Played 15 games) *Selected to Pro Bowl
  --ARZ #32 Murray 3822 YDs 21 TDs 7 INTs 66% 89.4 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 8 games) *came back from more than 10 month injury.

From this data, we can glean that successful QBs can still produce, regardless of inferior lines.  So, what does this tell us about DJ?  Nothing! We already know DJ does not possess the organic attributes of a superior passer; he never has, and never will.  Will his performance improve with a better OLine...absolutely! However, even when provided with average lines, with a superior RB, he still produced a bottom 5 passing offense. He clearly doesn't have the qualities to lead a top-tier passing offence, which is critical to winning SBs in the modern era.  We need to move on; I suspect the Giants feel the same. 

[kingm56]

Would Patrick be Patrick behind that OL?  No way.

Yes he would! He would be the same Patrick during SB against TB, when he was hitting WR/TE 30 yards downfield from a horizontal position, playing behind an atrocious oline.  Was there any doubt he was the best player on the field that evening?  You simply can't hide that type of talent! The same was true for Joe Burrow, playing behind an Oline that allowed an NFL high 19-sacks during their playoff run. You can throw-in Herberts record-breaking rookie season behind the NFL #32 ranked oline.  I could go on-and-on about QBs who still produced playing behind terrible lines in the modern era.  To be clear, I freely admit the W/L will be impacted; however, a QB can still produce and showcase unique abilities playing behind below-avg OLs.  To date, DJ has done neither... 

[EDjohnst1981]

I would say that the competition that Tyrod and Devito played against was a bit easier than the buzzsaw that DJ ran into in the first five games of the season.

Also in 2022, the Giants faced far fewer top 10 defences.

[Bob In PA]

The other thing that struck me is that Jones has never had the opportunity to work with an offensive line that was in the top half (not top third, just half) of the league.  Talk about being in an unappealing position.

... or an elite NFL WR. Bob

[MightyGiants]

The implicit notion of this thread suggest a QB is powerless to produce tangible passing metrics without an average, to above average Oline.  To test this theory, let's review the olines worse than our Giants:

 - 2020 ranked 31st
  --LAC #32 Herbert 4336 YDs 31 TDs 10 INTs 67% 98.3 RTG *Won ROY *Mult Rookie passing records
- 2021 ranked 30th
  --MIA #32 Tua 3758 YDs 16 TDs 10 INTs 68% 90.1 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 12 games)
- 2023 ranked 30th
  --SEA #31 Smith 3624 YDs 20 TDs 9 INTs 65% 92.1 RTG (Only Played 15 games) *Selected to Pro Bowl
  --ARZ #32 Murray 3822 YDs 21 TDs 7 INTs 66% 89.4 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 8 games) *came back from more than 10 month injury.

From this data, we can glean that successful QBs can still produce, regardless of inferior lines.  So, what does this tell us about DJ?  Nothing! We already know DJ does not possess the organic attributes of a superior passer; he never has, and never will.  Will his performance improve with a better OLine...absolutely! However, even when provided with average lines, with a superior RB, he still produced a bottom 5 passing offense. He clearly doesn't have the qualities to lead a top-tier passing offence, which is critical to winning SBs in the modern era.  We need to move on; I suspect the Giants feel the same. 

This is what happens when you only look at part of the issue


Here are the full rankings (there is no OC/HC rankings so admittedly we are still looking at just 2 of the three pillars)

2020 Chargers  Pass-Blocking- 30th  Receiving 12th  QBR 13th

2021 Dolphins  Pass-Blocking- 32nd  Receiving 18th  QBR 18th NOTE- lack of protection injured QB 

2023 Seahawks  Pass-Blocking- 28th  Receiving 7th  QBR 14th

2023 Cards  Pass-Blocking- 17th  Receiving 27th  QBR 22nd


This is why you should always look at the whole picture rather than select pieces.  If you want an accurate picture you need to be systematic and complete in one's examination

[kingm56]

This is what happens when you only look at part of the issue


Here are the full rankings (there is no OC/HC rankings so admittedly we are still looking at just 2 of the three pillars)

2020 Chargers  Pass-Blocking- 30th  Receiving 12th  QBR 13th

2021 Dolphins  Pass-Blocking- 32nd  Receiving 18th  QBR 18th NOTE- lack of protection injured QB 

2023 Seahawks  Pass-Blocking- 28th  Receiving 7th  QBR 14th

2023 Cards  Pass-Blocking- 17th  Receiving 27th  QBR 22nd


This is why you should always look at the whole picture rather than select pieces.  If you want an accurate picture you need to be systematic and complete in one's examination

The OP provided the aggregate ratings of the olines, I responded in kind.

[Philosophers]

The implicit notion of this thread suggest a QB is powerless to produce tangible passing metrics without an average, to above average Oline.  To test this theory, let's review the olines worse than our Giants:

 - 2020 ranked 31st
  --LAC #32 Herbert 4336 YDs 31 TDs 10 INTs 67% 98.3 RTG *Won ROY *Mult Rookie passing records
- 2021 ranked 30th
  --MIA #32 Tua 3758 YDs 16 TDs 10 INTs 68% 90.1 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 12 games)
- 2023 ranked 30th
  --SEA #31 Smith 3624 YDs 20 TDs 9 INTs 65% 92.1 RTG (Only Played 15 games) *Selected to Pro Bowl
  --ARZ #32 Murray 3822 YDs 21 TDs 7 INTs 66% 89.4 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 8 games) *came back from more than 10 month injury.

From this data, we can glean that successful QBs can still produce, regardless of inferior lines.  So, what does this tell us about DJ?  Nothing! We already know DJ does not possess the organic attributes of a superior passer; he never has, and never will.  Will his performance improve with a better OLine...absolutely! However, even when provided with average lines, with a superior RB, he still produced a bottom 5 passing offense. He clearly doesn't have the qualities to lead a top-tier passing offence, which is critical to winning SBs in the modern era.  We need to move on; I suspect the Giants feel the same. 

The implicit notion of this thread suggest a QB is powerless to produce tangible passing metrics without an average, to above average Oline.  To test this theory, let's review the olines worse than our Giants:

 - 2020 ranked 31st
  --LAC #32 Herbert 4336 YDs 31 TDs 10 INTs 67% 98.3 RTG *Won ROY *Mult Rookie passing records
- 2021 ranked 30th
  --MIA #32 Tua 3758 YDs 16 TDs 10 INTs 68% 90.1 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 12 games)
- 2023 ranked 30th
  --SEA #31 Smith 3624 YDs 20 TDs 9 INTs 65% 92.1 RTG (Only Played 15 games) *Selected to Pro Bowl
  --ARZ #32 Murray 3822 YDs 21 TDs 7 INTs 66% 89.4 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 8 games) *came back from more than 10 month injury.

From this data, we can glean that successful QBs can still produce, regardless of inferior lines.  So, what does this tell us about DJ?  Nothing! We already know DJ does not possess the organic attributes of a superior passer; he never has, and never will.  Will his performance improve with a better OLine...absolutely! However, even when provided with average lines, with a superior RB, he still produced a bottom 5 passing offense. He clearly doesn't have the qualities to lead a top-tier passing offence, which is critical to winning SBs in the modern era.  We need to move on; I suspect the Giants feel the same. 

The implicit notion of this thread suggest a QB is powerless to produce tangible passing metrics without an average, to above average Oline.  To test this theory, let's review the olines worse than our Giants:

 - 2020 ranked 31st
  --LAC #32 Herbert 4336 YDs 31 TDs 10 INTs 67% 98.3 RTG *Won ROY *Mult Rookie passing records
- 2021 ranked 30th
  --MIA #32 Tua 3758 YDs 16 TDs 10 INTs 68% 90.1 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 12 games)
- 2023 ranked 30th
  --SEA #31 Smith 3624 YDs 20 TDs 9 INTs 65% 92.1 RTG (Only Played 15 games) *Selected to Pro Bowl
  --ARZ #32 Murray 3822 YDs 21 TDs 7 INTs 66% 89.4 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 8 games) *came back from more than 10 month injury.

From this data, we can glean that successful QBs can still produce, regardless of inferior lines.  So, what does this tell us about DJ?  Nothing! We already know DJ does not possess the organic attributes of a superior passer; he never has, and never will.  Will his performance improve with a better OLine...absolutely! However, even when provided with average lines, with a superior RB, he still produced a bottom 5 passing offense. He clearly doesn't have the qualities to lead a top-tier passing offence, which is critical to winning SBs in the modern era.  We need to move on; I suspect the Giants feel the same. 

Let's use number of sacks as that is a better measurement.

2023 - Daniel Jones - played in 6 games, sacked 30 times, 160 pass attempts so was sacked once every 5.33 pass attempts.

2020 - Justin Herbert - played in 15 games, sacked only 32 times, 595 pass attempts so was sacked once every 18.6 pass attempts.

2021 - Tua - played in 13 games, sacked only 20 times, 388 pass attempts so was sacked once every 19.4 pass attempts.

2023 - Geno Smith - played in 15 games, sacked only 31 times, 499 pass attempts so sacked once every 16.1 pass attempts.

Kyler Murray - played in only 8 games, sacked only 18 times, 268 pass attempts so sacked once every 14.9 pass attempts.

These QBs you cite were not getting pressured at anything remotely close to what DJ endured.  Sacked every 5.33 attempts versus 14 - 19 attempts is statistically very meaningful and very different.  Your comparison is not remotely reasonable.  I am not saying DJ is a good QB or as good as the QBs you cite.   

[Philosophers]

Yes he would! He would be the same Patrick during SB against TB, when he was hitting WR/TE 30 yards downfield from a horizontal position, playing behind an atrocious oline.  Was there any doubt he was the best player on the field that evening?  You simply can't hide that type of talent! The same was true for Joe Burrow, playing behind an Oline that allowed an NFL high 19-sacks during their playoff run. You can throw-in Herberts record-breaking rookie season behind the NFL #32 ranked oline.  I could go on-and-on about QBs who still produced playing behind terrible lines in the modern era.  To be clear, I freely admit the W/L will be impacted; however, a QB can still produce and showcase unique abilities playing behind below-avg OLs.  To date, DJ has done neither... 

You can't cite just one game and conclude a player would play at a high level under those conditions always.  That is simply not statistically reasonable to use a 1 game sample.

I agree he played well in that game.  However let's see him get sacked 60 times in a 17 game season and instead of getting sacked every 15 - 18 times he throws the ball, he gets sacked every 5-6 times he throws the ball.  What will happen? 

He will start to get very frustrated he is getting hit that much and that frustration will boil over to his teammates making him do things he would not normally do like throw and duck to avoid a more painful hit or look toward the pressure for a split second more and not at his WR making a break so he won't have as good a feel for the rhythm of the route.  Will he do better than Daniel Jones?  Yes.  Will he do as well as a typical Mahommes season of getting sacked under 30 times per season?  No way.