New York Giants PFF offensive line rankings since 2019

[kingm56]

Hi King,

I appreciate your efforts here, but sadly you're not answering my question, or possibly dodging it, so I'll ask it again.

If Herbert has been playing behind a top 10-12 offensive line these past 4 years, and he still got injured, right? May I ask what would have happened to him if was actually playing behind the 30th ranked O line for these past 4 years?

Just curious your thoughts?

This isn't a hypothetical question; we know the answer, in 2020 he played behind the NFLs literal worst Oline and set all-time rookie passing numbers, while remaining mostly healthy.  This year he was injured for 5-games when he fractured his finger on a helmet, on a completed pass-play, and one he remained upright.  I am not making ANY correlations between said injury and PFF oline ratings.  To suggest the same injury would have occurred behind a weaker line is hardly fact based.  To that end, I find this particular question (in an otherwise good thread) silly.  I'm not a big fan of guessing what would happen, and there's zero evidence to suggest PFF oline ratings have a direct correlation on QB injuries.   

[kingm56]

Yet so many fans want the Giants to bail on DJ's contract based on that same "small sample"

60 games is a small sample size? 

[sxdxca38]

This isn't a hypothetical question; we know the answer, in 2020 he played behind the NFLs literal worst Oline and set all-time rookie passing numbers, while remaining mostly healthy.  This year he was injured for 5-games when he fractured his finger on a helmet, on a completed pass-play, and one he remained upright.  I am not making ANY correlations between said injury and PFF oline ratings.

Hi King,

So, I'll ask you a 3rd time, and I'll leave it at that, but if Herbert got injured playing behind a top 10-12 ranked O line these past four years. Could it be "possible" that he would have gotten injured even more playing behind the 30th ranked O line these past four years?

It's a simple yes or no answer, if you could please honestly answer the question that would be kind of you.

As I have no further questions.

[DaveBrown74]

Yet so many fans want the Giants to bail on DJ's contract based on that same "small sample"

Including, very possibly, the Giants themselves.

By actually being willing to take a $47mm cap hit this season when they could easily spread that hit out over future years, they are clearly demonstrating that they want to preserve the ability to cut him after this season. There is simply no other reason to absorb that entire hit this year.

Does that mean they 100% definitely will cut him after 2024? No. But it definitely means they want to make sure they are able to. In other words, they too are considering bailing on it after this season.

[MightyGiants]

This isn't a hypothetical question; we know the answer, in 2020 he played behind the NFLs literal worst Oline

Matt,

You were provided with data showing that the Chargers' pass blocking was 30th, yet you insist on claiming that Herbert "played behind the NFL's literal worst O-line."  That isn't true in the literal or figurative sense. Plus, you failed to mention that Herbert was boosted by the 12th-best receiving group in the NFL.

Stats should be used to learn and help us reach quality conclusions. They shouldn't be selectively used (or ignored) to prove a point or claim.  Are we trying to prove we are right, or are we trying to reach the right conclusions?

[kingm56]

Hi King,

So, I'll ask you a 3rd time, and I'll leave it at that, but if Herbert got injured playing behind a top 10-12 ranked O line these past four years. Could it be "possible" that he would have gotten injured even more playing behind the 30th ranked O line these past four years?

It's a simple yes or no answer, if you could please honestly answer the question that would be kind of you.

As I have no further questions.

This is a simple question to answer?

Again, this question is just silly. There is ZERO correlation between PFF oline ratings and QB injuries.  This year there were 16 starting QBs who missed game(s), from all over the oline rating spectrum. Watson played behind the NFL best Oline and missed 11 games.  Cousins missed 9 games behind the #13 line and Burrow missed 7 games behind the 17th line. The injuries are literally all over the spectrum.

Yes it's "possible"  he could of been "more" injured behind the Giants oline.  It's also equally "possible" he could sustain a career-ending injury playing behind the Browns or Phili lines. 

Besides, when reviewing DJ's past injuries, it's hard to place blame on the Oline.  Last years injury was during a non-contact play, as a byproduct of TRIPPING over a player the previous play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6J5Ay80tG4&ab_channel=SimplyAS10

or this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKJERIcrOEc&ab_channel=HighlightHeaven

or this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBwxH0GAM_Y&ab_channel=HighlightHeaven

or this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY2YDV9TCns&ab_channel=HighlightFeen
 
You're trying to draw conclusions directly refuted by the facts.

[kingm56]

Matt,

You were provided with data showing that the Chargers' pass blocking was 30th, yet you insist on claiming that Herbert "played behind the NFL's literal worst O-line."  That isn't true in the literal or figurative sense. Plus, you failed to mention that Herbert was boosted by the 12th-best receiving group in the NFL.

Stats should be used to learn and help us reach quality conclusions. They shouldn't be selectively used (or ignored) to prove a point or claim.  Are we trying to prove we are right, or are we trying to reach the right conclusions?

Please read what I wrote; again, I'm very precise with my language.  I explicitly stated aggregate (i.e. total).  I'm using the exact same metric the OP introduced; he also used the aggregate rating. 

[sxdxca38]

I had brought up Kyler Murrays offensive line issues in 2022 and 2023, and here is the injury he sustained last year directly related to the poor play of his line.

So, I will let the rest of the board decide if a poor offensive line can affect the play and health of a QB.

Clip down below.


Murray injury

[DaveBrown74]

I had brought up Kyler Murrays offensive line issues in 2022 and 2023, and here is the injury he sustained last year directly related to the poor play of his line.

So, I will let the rest of the board decide if a poor offensive line can affect the play and health of a QB.

Clip down below.


Murray injury

Yes, an O line can influence QB health and QB play.

If your qrgument is that Jones would be a better QB than he has been with a great O line, then I would agree with you.

If your argument is that Jones would be a great QB with a great O line, then I would disagree with you.

[kingm56]

I had brought up Kyler Murrays offensive line issues in 2022 and 2023, and here is the injury he sustained last year directly related to the poor play of his line.

So, I will let the rest of the board decide if a poor offensive line can affect the play and health of a QB.

Clip down below.


Murray injury

This play had absolutely nothing to do with Oline protection. The line executed the play, which involved crashing down to fool the defense into a strong side run; you can blame the play design, if you want, but it wasn't a result of poor pass protection.  It was a design rollout, predicated on misdirection.

Also, I'll continue to caution you against using a single piece of data to prove your point, while simultaneously ignoring other data that directly refutes it.  Below is a clip of Watson getting injured behind the Browns vaunted line.  Based on your criteria, we can conclude that QBs get injured behind top tier olines. That's my issue with your premise, SDX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdsLQtxDV2c&ab_channel=SimplyAS10

The NFL has gone through great length to protect the QB, even those playing behind bad olines.  Again, DJ's ACL injury last year was non-contact and had nothing to do with the oline; yet, you continue to profess they did.    Even his Neck injury was a byproduct of a design run and not the fault of the oline. 
 

[sxdxca38]

Yes, an O line can influence QB health and QB play.

If your qrgument is that Jones would be a better QB than he has been with a great O line, then I would agree with you.

If your argument is that Jones would be a great QB with a great O line, then I would disagree with you.

Dave,

I agree with you.

Especially with regards to your 3rd point.

He would be a better QB, possibly even good, but I don't think he will ever be an elite QB with a great O line, so I concur most definitely with your expressions.

However I don't think a team needs an elite QB to win a Superbowl, and once again I thank you for your reasonable comments and expressions, they are well received.

I now must do some errands, take care

[sxdxca38]

This play had absolutely nothing to do with Oline protection. The line executed the play, which involved crashing down to fool the defense into a strong side run; you can blame the play design, if you want, but it wasn't a result of poor pass protection.  It was a design rollout, predicated on misdirection.

Also, I'll continue to caution you against using a single piece of data to prove your point, while simultaneously ignoring other data that directly refutes it.  Below is a clip of Watson getting injured behind the Browns vaunted line.  Based on your criteria, we can conclude that QBs get injured behind top tier olines. That's my issue with your premise, SDX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdsLQtxDV2c&ab_channel=SimplyAS10

The NFL has gone through great length to protect the QB, even those playing behind bad olines.  Again, DJ's ACL injury last year was non-contact and had nothing to do with the oline; yet, you continue to profess they did.    Even his Neck injury was a byproduct of a design run and not the fault of the oline. 
 

Hi King,

I will leave you with these final comments as I have some errands I have to run.

My original premise was can an offensive lines performance affect the performance of a QB?

DJ's best years were 2019 and 2022 when his O line performed decently.

In 2020,2021, and 2023 were his worst years, when the O line performed terribly.

This is over a five-year period, not a single piece of evidence.

I also provided Kyler Murrays two worst years were in 2022-2023 when his O line was awful as well.

So I leave you with these thoughts, can an o line have an affect negatively or positively on a QB?

That is all I have to say, as I have to get some things done today.

Please be well and I'm sure we will talk again.

[kingm56]

Hi King,

I will leave you with these final comments as I have some errands I have to run.

My original premise was can an offensive lines performance affect the performance of a QB?

DJ's best years were 2019 and 2022 when his O line performed decently.

In 2020,2021, and 2023 were his worst years, when the O line performed terribly.

This is over a five-year period, not a single piece of evidence.

I also provided Kyler Murrays two worst years were in 2022-2023 when his O line was awful as well.

So I leave you with these thoughts, can an o line have an affect negatively or positively on a QB?

That is all I have to say, as I have to get some things done today.

Please be well and I'm sure we will talk again.

Fundamentally I agree, with the previous exceptions. I also don't have as much faith in DJs abilities as you.  Regardless, have a great day, SDX.

[Jclayton92]

The receiving core is just as bad, yeesh!

The Wr can't do anything if the Qb doesn't throw the ball.

[AZGiantFan]

The Wr can't do anything if the Qb doesn't throw the ball.

Now THAT sounds like an excuse.