Former player Dominique Foxworth calls out former GM on QBs

[DaveBrown74]

You assume he would be the same with the Giants that he was with the Bills

Can you show me precisely where I said that?

[MightyGiants]

Can you show me precisely where I said that?

I have to think you are aware of the concept of subtext.  If you no longer want to discuss the topic, that's okay with me. 

[DaveBrown74]

I have to think you are aware of the concept of subtext.  If you no longer want to discuss the topic, that's okay with me. 

Yes, I know what subtext is, thanks. I don't know why you would have arrived at the claim you made when I explicitly said "Allen might have taken longer to develop on the Giants than on the Bills." That pretty much ruled out the assumption you claim I am making. There was never any "subtext" that Allen's career on the Giants would have been exactly the same as it was on the Bills to this point.

You have on opinion on this particular subject. I happen to have a different one. I stated the reasons for my view. I was totally respectful from the outset and said that I knew many people saw this issue one way, whereas I happened to see it a different way. I acknowledged my view might be in the minority here. But rather than accept that there is some diversity of opinion on some subjects, you then proceed to come at me with claims of flaws in my reasoning and false assumptions, and then you made a false claim that I think something that I in fact don't think and made very clear earlier I don't think. I don't know why any of that was necessary. It seems a lot easier and more respectful to just accept that not everyone agrees with you on every subject rather than go on the offensive when that is the case.

[MightyGiants]

I explicitly said "Allen might have taken longer to develop on the Giants than on the Bills."

The support doesn't just speed up or slow down a QBs development it can change a QB's very trajectory.  Just ask David Carr and Daniel Jones.

[kingm56]

The support doesn't just speed up or slow down a QBs development it can change a QB's very trajectory.  Just ask David Carr and Daniel Jones.

You're assuming both QBs would have different trajectories, if paired with different teams.  You have absolutely no way of proving this; yet, you're spouting these theories as facts.  Its equally possible both players would  fail in different situations.  Kenny Pickens had a good situation in Pitt and failed, as do a lot of QBs drafted by good teams.  Perhaps Carr wasn't that good to begin with, which is why he failed to enjoy significant success after Hou. 

[MightyGiants]

You're assuming both QBs would have different trajectories, if paired with different teams.  You have absolutely no way of proving this; yet, you're spouting these theories as facts.  Its equally possible both players would  fail in different situations.  Kenny Pickens had a good situation in Pitt and failed, as do a lot of QBs drafted by good teams.  Perhaps Carr wasn't that good to begin with, which is why he failed to enjoy significant success after Hou. 

You are mixing things up a bit.  What I think is close to a fact is that a QB's development and performance are significantly impacted by the support they receive.  Given examples are just that, examples.  As for Pickens, his issue was character-related, not talent.  How much a given player can or were impacted is a matter of some speculation.

Pickens seems to lack a competitive drive and the toughness to handle adversity, based on what we saw transpire with him.

[Trench]

You are mixing things up a bit.  What I think is close to a fact is that a QB's development and performance are significantly impacted by the support they receive.  Given examples are just that, examples.  As for Pickens, his issue was character-related, not talent.  How much a given player can or were impacted is a matter of some speculation.

Pickens seems to lack a competitive drive and the toughness to handle adversity, based on what we saw transpire with him.

As for the Giants regarding your description above, in my opinion we can also erase the name "Pickens" and insert the name "Jones" in the last paragraph

[Jclayton92]

Qbs are either able to lift up their team and the players around them or they cant.

[MightyGiants]

Qbs are either able to lift up their team and the players around them or they cant.

So is Herbert a worse QB than what the Giants fielded, since he failed to raise his team and had a worse record than the Giants?

[kingm56]

Qbs are either able to lift up their team and the players around them or they cant.

Changing coaching, teams, talent doesn't tangibly alter their trajectory. If they're good, they typically demonstrate that ability around their 25/30 start.  There could be an anomaly year, but they always revert to the mean. A lot of NFL execs appear to accept this new paradigm as few teams hold on to underperforming QB beyond 2-to-3 years. Obviously, the Giants are the exception, which is why we're still talking about this 60 games later...

[MightyGiants]

Changing coaching, teams, talent doesn't tangibly alter their trajectory. 

That claim is simply incorrect.  We witnessed the opposite with DJ in 2022.  We witnessed it with Mayfield in Tampa.  We saw it with Goff in Detroit.   We saw it with Geno Smith in Seattle.  We saw it with Tua in Miami.  Then there are all the college QBs where you saw the transfer portal change their paths with Daniels, Penix, and Bo Nix.

[Jclayton92]

That claim is simply incorrect.  We witnessed the opposite with DJ in 2022.  We witnessed it with Mayfield in Tampa.  We saw it with Goff in Detroit.   We saw it with Geno Smith in Seattle.  We saw it with Tua in Miami.  Then there are all the college QBs where you saw the transfer portal change their paths with Daniels, Penix, and Bo Nix.

Tua and Jones aren't on the same boat and it's not close. Tua led the league in passing yards, while Jones can't execute a pass oriented offense.

[MightyGiants]

Tua and Jones aren't on the same boat and it's not close. Tua led the league in passing yards, while Jones can't execute a pass oriented offense.

Are you suggesting Tua didn't see a sizeable bump in his stats with the addition of Tyreek Hill?

[kingm56]

That claim is simply incorrect.  We witnessed the opposite with DJ in 2022.  We witnessed it with Mayfield in Tampa.  We saw it with Goff in Detroit.   We saw it with Geno Smith in Seattle.  We saw it with Tua in Miami.  Then there are all the college QBs where you saw the transfer portal change their paths with Daniels, Penix, and Bo Nix.

As indicated by your examples, you clearly did not read all my text and/or spend time analyzing QB trajectories.  Since performance is greatly impacted by injuries, I wrote a script to compile data for each year and output tje 17-game average.  Once you eliminate injuries as a factor for perceived improvements, you can  glean the 17-game averages remain fairly consistent. 


Daniel Jones:
Year   Cmp%   Yds   TD   Int   RTG
2019   61.9   3958   31   16   87.7
2020   62.5   3574   13   12   80.4
2021   64.3   3752   15   11   84.8
2022   67.2   3405   16   5   92.5
2023   67.5   2576   6   17   70.5

2022 was the first year DJ remained healthy for all 16 games; however, his per game output was not tangibly different than his prior two seasons.  I also clearly stated that my research suggest QBs can have an anomaly year, before reverting to the mean, which is exactly what happened to DJ.

Jarred Goff

2016   54.6   2645   12   17   63.6
2017   62.1   4311   32   8   100.5 *Pro Bowl
2018   64.9   4981   34   13   101.1 *Pro Bowl
2019   62.9   4928   23   17   86.5
2020   67   4479   23   15   90
2021   67.2   3940   23   10   91.5
2022   65.1   4438   29   7   99.3   *Pro Bowl
2023   67.3   4575   30   12   97.9

This was a really odd example considering Goff was 2x Pro Bowler before he was traded to the Lions  He is, and has always been, a good QB. 

Baker Mayfield

2018   63.8   4871   35   18   93.7   *AP ORoy-2
2019   59.4   4066   23   22   78.8
2020   62.8   3786   28   9   95.9
2021   60.5   3655   21   16   83.1
2023   64.3   4044   28   10   94.6   *AP COoy-3

Last year wasn't Mayfield's best year; that occurred in 2018.  Still, he's remains consistent with his inconsistency; his linear projection is early similar.    I'm willing to bet he doesn't duplicate his performance next season. 

Geno Smith was jettison after just 22-starts; he didn't get the 25-to-30 starts I clearly indicated as threshold for predicting QB performance.  As a spot starter (including with our Giants), after his 25 game, his 17 game average were comparable to last season. 

[MightyGiants]

As indicated by your examples, you clearly did not read all my text and/or spend time analyzing QB trajectories.  Since performance is greatly impacted by injuries, I wrote a script to compile data for each year and output tje 17-game average.  Once you eliminate injuries as a factor for perceived improvements, you can  glean the 17-game averages remain fairly consistent. 


Daniel Jones:
Year   Cmp%   Yds   TD   Int   RTG
2019   61.9   3958   31   16   87.7
2020   62.5   3574   13   12   80.4
2021   64.3   3752   15   11   84.8
2022   67.2   3405   16   5   92.5
2023   67.5   2576   6   17   70.5

2022 was the first year DJ remained healthy for all 16 games; however, his per game output was not tangibly different than his prior two seasons.  I also clearly stated that my research suggest QBs can have an anomaly year, before reverting to the mean, which is exactly what happened to DJ.

Jarred Goff

2016   54.6   2645   12   17   63.6
2017   62.1   4311   32   8   100.5 *Pro Bowl
2018   64.9   4981   34   13   101.1 *Pro Bowl
2019   62.9   4928   23   17   86.5
2020   67   4479   23   15   90
2021   67.2   3940   23   10   91.5
2022   65.1   4438   29   7   99.3   *Pro Bowl
2023   67.3   4575   30   12   97.9

This was a really odd example considering Goff was 2x Pro Bowler before he was traded to the Lions  He is, and has always been, a good QB. 

Baker Mayfield

2018   63.8   4871   35   18   93.7   *AP ORoy-2
2019   59.4   4066   23   22   78.8
2020   62.8   3786   28   9   95.9
2021   60.5   3655   21   16   83.1
2023   64.3   4044   28   10   94.6   *AP COoy-3

Last year wasn't Mayfield's best year; that occurred in 2018.  Still, he's remains consistent with his inconsistency; his linear projection is early similar.    I'm willing to bet he doesn't duplicate his performance next season. 

Geno Smith was jettison after just 22-starts; he didn't get the 25-to-30 starts I clearly indicated as threshold for predicting QB performance.  As a spot starter (including with our Giants), after his 25 game, his 17 game average were comparable to last season. 

Why didn't you include QBR? I consider it one of the top statistics for measuring QB performance.  QB rating is nice, but it doesn't take into account a QB's rushing contribution, so I never use one without the other.  In fact, I noticed you completely ignored the QB's ground game contributions in all the stats you selected.   You know rushing yards and TDs count just as much when a QB runs for them as when they throw for them.