Former player Dominique Foxworth calls out former GM on QBs

[T200]

Tim,

How did you determine the faults you claim DJ has?

Rich,

Can you kindly answer my questions first? 

[MightyGiants]

Rich,

Can you kindly answer my questions first? 

From my perspective, your question seems to be based on a false or hyperbolic premise.  That makes it difficult for me to answer.  Is DJ seeing ghosts because of NYG's failure to protect?  It appears so.  Would an elite WR change that?  It's hard to say; I haven't talked to DJ (the team does have a sports psychologist, which would be helpful.   Will DJ stay healthy with an elite WR? Again, hard to say

As @AZGiantFan brought up with the claims of many of DJ's critics that he needs perfect conditions (when DJ hasn't even had NFL normal), it's tough to discuss a player when the criticism is often more hyperbolic than reasoned.  Oddly enough, the more myself and others try to be fair in our assessment of DJ, it seems to push the criticism of Jones to even greater levels.

[Trench]

Both NY Giants backups moved the ball downfield ALOT better than Jones did with the same cast. It was clearly evident to me. That is what supports Tim's analysis in my opinion.

Seeing what our backups did as opposed to Jones in the same season with the same Personell is going to be the nail in his coffin when the Giants likely choose a QB on Thursday.

[T200]

From my perspective, your question seems to be based on a false or hyperbolic premise.  That makes it difficult for me to answer.  Is DJ seeing ghosts because of NYG's failure to protect?  It appears so.  Would an elite WR change that?  It's hard to say; I haven't talked to DJ (the team does have a sports psychologist, which would be helpful.  Will DJ stay healthy with an elite WR? Again, hard to say

As @AZGiantFan brought up with the claims of many of DJ's critics that he needs perfect conditions (when DJ hasn't even had NFL normal), it's tough to discuss a player when the criticism is often more hyperbolic than reasoned. Oddly enough, the more myself and others try to be fair in our assessment of DJ, it seems to push the criticism of Jones to even greater levels.

If he had a "healthy, elite receiver", would he still bird dog him and telegraph where he's going with the ball?

Would he still look for checkdowns when the pressure comes instead of giving his elite receiver an opportunity to catch a contested ball?

Will he still wait until his elite receiver has at least five yards of separation before going deep?

Would he still hear footsteps when he has a clean pocket?

Would he look downfield when the play breaks down to find any open receivers?

My questions, in your perspective, are based on "a false or hyperbolic premise" yet yours is based on...???

The same way you can watch him in games and determine he's seeing ghosts, is the same way I and others can watch those same games and see the things I mentioned. Your eyes aren't better or worse than ours. It's a football Rorschach test.

Most of us have been fair in our assessments of Jones. We just assess him differently than you do. We account for the lack of support from the offensive line but we don't excuse his lack of production because of it. You and others give him a pass for it and want to wait until he gets the proper support in order to truly evaluate him. If "no QB can thrive in this situation" as you and others have suggested, then it also follows that it is extremely asinine and wasteful to throw 80+ million dollars at a guy who has demonstrably proven that he cannot stay healthy or be productive behind this "offensive" line. Of course, that's not on Jones. But his lack of production is.

I think where our concerns diverge is what the future holds for him if he has proper support.
Tim,

How did you determine the faults you claim DJ has?

The same as yours, Rich. Watching the games and reporting what I'm seeing. The fact that others here have seen the same or similar tells me that I'm not DJ... I'm not seeing 'ghosts', which you feel he is. I happen to agree with you. We also agree on the reason: lack of protection primarily.

[MightyGiants]

My questions, in your perspective, are based on "a false or hyperbolic premise" yet yours is based on...???

The same way you can watch him in games and determine he's seeing ghosts, is the same way I and others can watch those same games and see the things I mentioned. Your eyes aren't better or worse than ours. It's a football Rorschach test.

Most of us have been fair in our assessments of Jones. We just assess him differently than you do. We account for the lack of support from the offensive line but we don't excuse his lack of production because of it. You and others give him a pass for it and want to wait until he gets the proper support in order to truly evaluate him. If "no QB can thrive in this situation" as you and others have suggested, then it also follows that it is extremely asinine and wasteful to throw 80+ million dollars at a guy who has demonstrably proven that he cannot stay healthy or be productive behind this "offensive" line. Of course, that's not on Jones. But his lack of production is.
The same as yours, Rich. Watching the games and reporting what I'm seeing. The fact that others here have seen the same or similar tells me that I'm not DJ... I'm not seeing 'ghosts', which you feel he is. I happen to agree with you. We also agree on the reason: lack of protection primarily.

Tim,

From my perspective, DJ has had some of the worst protection and receivers, and until Daboll, the worst coaching to support him since coming into the league.  While I appreciate that many of Jones' critics believe that QBs can somehow make linemen block better and receivers get open, I don't share that view.  I believe that QBs are impacted by the support they receive not vice versa.

In addition, I have to reconcile comments from someone I greatly respect, like Greg Cosell (I admire both his tape study acumen as well as his extreme adherence to intellectual honest), who talks about Daniel Jones having the ability to be a good NFL QB with the criticism I see on this forum which from the comments many of the critics seem to think Jones has no redeeming qualities.  Plus, there are the intellectually dishonest comments about "excuse making" or "Jones needs everything perfect," which really make it difficult to take some of the critics seriously.  It also doesn't help that I have seen many of the Jones critics beating their chests, talking about how they have been "right" about Jones being a bad QB (that sort of thing shows that bias is possible, if not likely).

Look, there isn't an NFL commentator I respect that didn't agree with Mara's comment about doing everything possible to screw up Daniel Jones.   I am mindful that such actions can have permanent and/or lasting consequences.  Jones has never enjoyed the support an NFL QB needs to be fully successful.   Unfortunately, now, injuries, being gun shy from the beating, and faults being magnified by the bad situation may have derailed DJ's career permanently, especially in light of the injuries he sustained.

Look, I appreciate my role in creating some of the extreme criticism.  It seems when I challenged what I felt was unfair criticism, it tended to only make the critics dig in their heals and become even more negative on Daniel Jones.   The reality is short of a miracle comeback by Jones. I doubt the most ardent critics of Jones, and I will never see eye to eye on the subject.  That's life, people will see things differently.

[T200]

Tim,

From my perspective, DJ has had some of the worst protection and receivers, and until Daboll, the worst coaching to support him since coming into the league.  While I appreciate that many of Jones' critics believe that QBs can somehow make linemen block better and receivers get open, I don't share that view.  I believe that QBs are impacted by the support they receive not vice versa.

...

Look, I appreciate my role in creating some of the extreme criticism.

Rich,

Respectfully, this is where I bow out of the conversation. The statement I highlighted is what creates the tension here. When positions are grossly misrepresented, frankly, it pisses people off when their words get twisted. For the record, not one person has ever stated that.

I appreciate the exchange.

[MightyGiants]

Rich,

Respectfully, this is where I bow out of the conversation. The statement I highlighted is what creates the tension here. When positions are grossly misrepresented, frankly, it pisses people off when their words get twisted. For the record, not one person has ever stated that.

I appreciate the exchange.

Tim,

You seem to constantly challenge me, but that's okay.  I don't post my opinions lightly, and I am more than capable of defending my thoughts from your challenges.   To your point, are you suggesting that fans don't claim that QBs can improve the play of their offensive teammates?   You went kind of afield of things when you suggested my rewording was "twisting."   What I did was reword the point to better illustrate what was said.   Sure, the vague QB raises the play of those around him SOUNDS better, but it's not as detailed as listing the jobs of those around them that a QB is "elevation" to illustrate the point better.

[T200]

Tim,

You seem to constantly challenge me, but that's okay.  I don't post my opinions lightly, and I am more than capable of defending my thoughts from your challenges.   To your point, are you suggesting that fans don't claim that QBs can improve the play of their offensive teammates?   You went kind of afield of things when you suggested my rewording was "twisting."   What I did was reword the point to better illustrate what was said.   Sure, the vague QB raises the play of those around him SOUNDS better, but it's not as detailed as listing the jobs of those around them that a QB is "elevation" to illustrate the point better.

There is a difference in challenging your statement(s) versus challenging you, the person.

I did not challenge you; I posed questions to you regarding your statement about Jones not having an elite receiver.

When you put forth a statement and incorrectly attribute it to a group of people, loosely based on something that was previously said, that is twisting words. No two ways about it.

At this point, I do challenge you to find a post claiming, "Jones' critics believe that QBs can somehow make linemen block better and receivers get open..." If you can't, then please retract that as it is a false accusation and goes against the decorum of the board.

[MightyGiants]

There is a difference in challenging your statement(s) versus challenging you, the person.

I did not challenge you; I posed questions to you regarding your statement about Jones not having an elite receiver.

When you put forth a statement and incorrectly attribute it to a group of people, loosely based on something that was previously said, that is twisting words. No two ways about it.

At this point, I do challenge you to find a post claiming, "Jones' critics believe that QBs can somehow make linemen block better and receivers get open..." If you can't, then please retract that as it is a false accusation and goes against the decorum of the board.

Tim,

How exactly does a quarterback "elevate the play of those around them" if not by having them do their jobs better??? I appreciate the phrase, which is a common one, but if I take on your role of challenging things, the phrase doesn't hold up to even moderate scrutiny.

[T200]

Tim,

How exactly does a quarterback "elevate the play of those around them" if not by having them do their jobs better??? I appreciate the phrase, which is a common one, but if I take on your role of challenging things, the phrase doesn't hold up to even moderate scrutiny.

Ball placement and accuracy: hitting a receiver in stride, throwing it to a spot that doesn't get him killed.

Touch and finesse on passes. Not telegraphing passes to give the safety a bead on the pass/receiver.

Pocket awareness.

[MightyGiants]

Ball placement and accuracy: hitting a receiver in stride, throwing it to a spot that doesn't get him killed.

Touch and finesse on passes. Not telegraphing passes to give the safety a bead on the pass/receiver.

Pocket awareness.

If a receiver doesn't get open, runs the wrong route, or fails to catch the ball or the blocking doesn't give he QB time to throw, none of what you just cited matters.  There needs to be a level of performance before a QB's play can make a difference.

[AZGiantFan]

Acknowledging up front that none of us have a crystal ball, what, in your estimation, is Jones's ceiling if he had one elite receiver and a "reasonably competent OL"? Specifically, top 10? Top 5? What's he averaging (yards, TDs, INTs, completion %) over a three-year period with that type of support?

Just curious.

Personally, I see a 5-10% bump above his '22 stats.

Top ten

[AZGiantFan]

Mighty if u are comparing or asking me would I take Herbert over Jones in terms of elevating the team then the answer is a resounding YES!....its not even close.

Too many still believe (after what 5 years) this guy is the next coming....the same people will be up in arms when (after Thursday)
 we draft a new QB and he doesn't have great success before year 3.

MARK MY WORDS PLEASE

Maybe a better question would be how good would Herbert be with a horrific OL, no elite receivers, and three years of cluster flop, unstable coaching?

[Trench]

Maybe a better question would be how good would Herbert be with a horrific OL, no elite receivers, and three years of cluster flop, unstable coaching?

We already have the proof we need which few will discuss and is commonly glossed over and that is the fact our 2 backups moved the ball much better downfield than Jones. This is proof. Everything else is based on maybes and opinions