The Giants draft WR Malik Nabers round one

[katkavage]

I think many people also explained how I feel and the last post by Dave said it best. Yes, Jones had a decent year compared to many of the terrible years.
I'm sorry but fans (and I don't mean you specifically) keep telling us how Jones lacks certain things for a QB to be successful. True, but how many QBs in the league have a perfect system, great OL great WRs, and a good running game.
Anyone can succeed in those conditions. What separates the winners from the losers is that the good ones can overcome obstacles and still succeed. Jones is just not in that category. Everything needs to be perfect for him to have success and that is still not what the Giants offer. He simply cannot overcome certain things that other good QBs can. We have given him plenty of things now, so overall, I hope you are right, but I seriously doubt it. Jones is what Jones is, an average QB who can make certain throws in the right circumstances but when he is asked to do more, he cannot. That is why he succeeded in the years you mentioned. He wasn't asked to do more than he was able to, we got a year of lucky ounces and breaks and we won. His numbers, as far as league wise, were average at best, but compared to his numbers from other years, he was successful. Nabors might get him a few more yards and completions, but that is about all.

I hear all the time what's with the Jones hate. First of all, there is no hate. It's a judgement on his play, that's all. I don't understand the "love." I've been watching him and football for over five decades. I have not seen Jones do what great QBs do, overcome odds and carry the team to victory. It has never happened. Well, okay, in the fourth quarter against a pitiful Arizona team last year. And yes, he had a very good game against a Minnesota team whose defense was abysmal. Beyond that. Nothing. I listed the rankings I felt of the current QBs. Jones was number 21. Maybe Nabers and a better offensive line will bump him up to 15 or 16. That's the ceiling folks. He's never shown anything beyond that. I know why they didn't draft a QB. I know this franchise and how it works. They knew New England was never going to trade out of #3 so posturing with those picks was just that. And when they passed on McCarthy they never were serious about getting a QB. They signed Jones to big money. They want to get something out of that if they can. I get it. But we fans have to wait now until 2025 or beyond for hope. At least that's how I feel.

[sxdxca38]

Hi SXD,

I have seen you make this statement several times recently.

How would you say "his best years" compared to the rest of the league's QBs? Because that is frankly all that matters. Every QB who has played multiple seasons had his own "best years." All that matters is how they compared to the rest of the league. And if one is going to do an honest, objective comparison, one needs to look at the numbers holistically and not just pull out a few stats while omitting other key metrics.

I think Jones' best year was 2022. And that was hardly a great year. It was fine, but far from spectacular. At best it was league-average overall. I understand his efficiency metrics were above average, but his totals were way below average. The efficiency numbers were boosted by it being a simplistic offense that had him as a short pass-throwing game manager with the offense based on the running game. He was not asked to do much throwing the ball, and he didn't do much throwing the ball. He didn't make a lot of mistakes, so that is good, but it's relatively easy to not make a lot of mistakes when you're not being asked to make many risky throws.

His rookie season was worse than 2022 in my opinion. He turned the ball over way too much to be remotely effective. I get that some fans like to pretend fumbles don't matter and just want to isolate the other stats and brush the fumbles under the rug, but no serious/objective evaluator would ever do that.

All his other years were very, very poor in my opinion.

Just my two cents.

Hi Dave,

I always appreciate your posts and I wanted to say thank you for addressing me in a civil and respectful manner, that means a lot.

I would like to now answer your question regarding how Daniel Jones faired compared to his peers in 2022, which in my opinion was his best year.

In 2022 he only played in 16 games, because they had already secured a playoff spot, so they sat him for game 17, that needs to be factored in, as it affected his numbers.

This isn't an exhaustive list, but I did include the most important criteria, they are the following:

He threw for 3,200 Yards which ranked him 15th
His 67.2% comp ranked him 6th
His 15 passing TD's ranked him 21st
His 5 Int ranked him 2nd
He was sacked 44 times which ranked him 5th most
His 62.9 QBR ranked him 6th
His 92.9 RTG ranked him 13th

He had 6 fumbles which means 21 QB's were worse.

He rushed for over 700 Yards and 7 TD's.

If we combine his total yardage of passing and rushing we get these numbers:

3,900 Yards 67.2 % 22 TD 5 Int 92.9 RTG

This then ranks him based on total yardage as 11th in the league.

Hope that helps in some way.

[sxdxca38]

I think many people also explained how I feel and the last post by Dave said it best. Yes, Jones had a decent year compared to many of the terrible years.
I'm sorry but fans (and I don't mean you specifically) keep telling us how Jones lacks certain things for a QB to be successful. True, but how many QBs in the league have a perfect system, great OL great WRs, and a good running game.
Anyone can succeed in those conditions. What separates the winners from the losers is that the good ones can overcome obstacles and still succeed. Jones is just not in that category. Everything needs to be perfect for him to have success and that is still not what the Giants offer. He simply cannot overcome certain things that other good QBs can. We have given him plenty of things now, so overall, I hope you are right, but I seriously doubt it. Jones is what Jones is, an average QB who can make certain throws in the right circumstances but when he is asked to do more, he cannot. That is why he succeeded in the years you mentioned. He wasn't asked to do more than he was able to, we got a year of lucky ounces and breaks and we won. His numbers, as far as league wise, were average at best, but compared to his numbers from other years, he was successful. Nabors might get him a few more yards and completions, but that is about all.

Hi Lenn,

Please see my post to Dave that addresses a lot of your concerns.

To add to my post, I'd like to mention some of the QB's Daniel defeated in 2022, they are the following:

Lamar Jackson
Aaron Rodgers
Trevor Lawrence
Kirk Cousins (should've been twice)

Now he has Nabers, to go along with Wandale and Hyatt.

If they can get the O line to just play average, say ranked 17th-18th, Daniel will have a big year.

[Jclayton92]

Hi Lenn,

Please see my post to Dave that addresses a lot of your concerns.

To add to my post, I'd like to mention some of the QB's Daniel defeated in 2022, they are the following:

Lamar Jackson
Aaron Rodgers
Trevor Lawrence
Kirk Cousins (should've been twice)

Now he has Nabers, to go along with Wandale and Hyatt.

If they can get the O line to just play average, say ranked 17th-18th, Daniel will have a big year.

You do remember that Jones didn't throw a pass for the last 17 minutes of the Jacksonville game even when we were down right?

Or that he only threw for 173 yards against the Ravens, and it took an epic meltdown from Jackson plus a great rushing and defensive game from guys not named Jones to win that game.

Barkley was the number 1 back in the league through the first half of 2022, but but our qb that barely averaged 180 yards and 1 td a game was the driving force..

[sxdxca38]

You do remember that Jones didn't throw a pass for the last 17 minutes of the Jacksonville game even when we were down right?

Or that he only threw for 173 yards against the Ravens, and it took an epic meltdown from Jackson plus a great rushing and defensive game from guys not named Jones to win that game.

Barkley was the number 1 back in the league through the first half of 2022, but but our qb that barely averaged 180 yards and 1 td a game was the driving force..

Hi,

I don't really have any issues with you, and I'm sure you're probably a decent to nice person in real life, but you've made it pretty clear over the years that you really don't like Daniel Jones, as you are entitled to your opinion.

But,

With that being the case, from time to time there are some posts that people make that make me say "Did he really just say that?", and this just happens to be one of those posts that I've highlighted in bold up above.

Daniel Jones against the Jacksonville Jaguars won "Offensive Player of the Week" in 2022.

Would you like to know why?

He was 19/30, passed for over 200 yards, 1 TD 0 Int, 94.0 RTG 88.2 QBR

He also rushed 11 times for over 107 yards averaging 9.7 yard per carry, including 1 rushing TD.

His go-ahead rushing TD with 5:31 remaining put the Giants ahead for the win, 23-17.

And he was the first player in Giants history to pass for over 200 yards, and rush for over 100 in the same game.

Equaling over 300 yards of total offense.

He outperformed Trevor Lawrence in that game.

So, I'll ask, are you sure you want to hold your position?

Here is the link down below to show you he won offensive player of the week against Jacksonville.

Enjoy

Daniel Jones

[H-Town G-Fan]

Hi,

I don't really have any issues with you, and I'm sure you're probably a decent to nice person in real life, but you've made it pretty clear over the years that you really don't like Daniel Jones, as you are entitled to your opinion.

But,

With that being the case, from time to time there are some posts that people make that make me say "Did he really just say that?", and this just happens to be one of those posts that I've highlighted in bold up above.

Daniel Jones against the Jacksonville Jaguars won "Offensive Player of the Week" in 2022.

Would you like to know why?

He was 19/30, passed for over 200 yards, 1 TD 0 Int, 94.0 RTG 88.2 QBR

He also rushed 11 times for over 107 yards averaging 9.7 yard per carry, including 1 rushing TD.

His go-ahead rushing TD with 5:31 remaining put the Giants ahead for the win, 23-17.

And he was the first player in Giants history to pass for over 200 yards, and rush for over 100 in the same game.

Equaling over 300 yards of total offense.

He outperformed Trevor Lawrence in that game.

So, I'll ask, are you sure you want to hold your position?

Here is the link down below to show you he won offensive player of the week against Jacksonville.

Enjoy

Daniel Jones

I know I haven't been a part of this conversation, but it's unclear to me in reading this whether you understand that QBR (the ESPN stat) is not a pure passing metric, but rather holistic. You've mentioned it with reference to Jones's passing stats, but then said he "also" contributed through rushing. ESPN QBR already incorporates the rushing productivity of the QB. That is how its calculated. Jones's running performance against Jacksonville was the 8th highest running EPA of any QB game that year and his best from that campaign. By contrast, Jones didn't log even one of the top 50 passing performances by EPA in 2022 (his generally accepted best season). He's a running QB who happens to throw the ball from time to time. But we already know that the Giants don't have unlimited faith in this backwards skillset because of the way they structured his contract and attempted to go after his replacement this last draft, offering significant value to move up just three spots.

As to the "Player of the Week" mention, it's a relatively meaningless thing. Jameis Winston won Player of the Week twice in the NFC. No one is clamoring for him to be a franchise quarterback. Rather, it shows that talented (but utlimately flawed QBs) are capable of putting together (relatively) impressive showings. That is not surprising given they are NFL QBs. The real test is not simply flashing every so often, but performing at a high level consistently.

[kingm56]

Hi Lenn,

Please see my post to Dave that addresses a lot of your concerns.

To add to my post, I'd like to mention some of the QB's Daniel defeated in 2022, they are the following:

Lamar Jackson
Aaron Rodgers
Trevor Lawrence
Kirk Cousins (should've been twice)

Now he has Nabers, to go along with Wandale and Hyatt.

If they can get the O line to just play average, say ranked 17th-18th, Daniel will have a big year.

Speaking of "from time to time there are some posts that people make that make me say "Did he really just say that?"

You want fans to give credit for DJ, the individual, for beating the QBs/teams you listed, while simultaneously expressing it's unfair to evaluate DJ, the individual, because of a poor supporting cast?  So, he gets individual credit for the wins, but accepts minimal, to no, culpability for the loses? 

Using your logic, Aiden O'Connel is better than Mahomes; after all, the former beat the latter head-to-head this year. 

Surely you can see the fallacy in using Head-to-Head to support your position?  H-Town perfectly captured my reply relating to QBR...

Nobody is stating DJ won't improve with better protection/wrs; however, it's incredibly unlikely he'll develop into the high volume passer required to win NFL championships in the modern era.  I suspect the latter is why the Giants tried to move-up with the Pats; unfortunately, they were desperate for a QB too, which drove the price too high for our Giants.   

[sjones71]

An effort made to get Maye. Clearly they did not have a high enough opinion on McCarthy or other options such as Nix, Penix. Given that, you get yourself what appears to be an incredibly talented WR who can turn routine plays into big gains. Sets us up for when we are able to address QB and gives Jones another no-excuses season.

[MightyGiants]

An effort made to get Maye. Clearly they did not have a high enough opinion on McCarthy or other options such as Nix, Penix. Given that, you get yourself what appears to be an incredibly talented WR who can turn routine plays into big gains. Sets us up for when we are able to address QB and gives Jones another no-excuses season.

That's it in a nutshell: the Giants needed an elite receiver on their offense, and now they have one.  The QB issue is a separate issue

[Jclayton92]

Hi,

I don't really have any issues with you, and I'm sure you're probably a decent to nice person in real life, but you've made it pretty clear over the years that you really don't like Daniel Jones, as you are entitled to your opinion.

But,

With that being the case, from time to time there are some posts that people make that make me say "Did he really just say that?", and this just happens to be one of those posts that I've highlighted in bold up above.

Daniel Jones against the Jacksonville Jaguars won "Offensive Player of the Week" in 2022.

Would you like to know why?

He was 19/30, passed for over 200 yards, 1 TD 0 Int, 94.0 RTG 88.2 QBR

He also rushed 11 times for over 107 yards averaging 9.7 yard per carry, including 1 rushing TD.

His go-ahead rushing TD with 5:31 remaining put the Giants ahead for the win, 23-17.

And he was the first player in Giants history to pass for over 200 yards, and rush for over 100 in the same game.

Equaling over 300 yards of total offense.

He outperformed Trevor Lawrence in that game.

So, I'll ask, are you sure you want to hold your position?

Here is the link down below to show you he won offensive player of the week against Jacksonville.

Enjoy

Daniel Jones

You have an amazing way of just ignoring everything someone says and putting your own facts out there for interpretation. You acted like Jones beat all these Qbs when we all watched those games and know otherwise. I doubt if you polled the entire forum you'd be hard pressed to find multiple people that think Jones was the driving force behind our wins in 2022.

[sxdxca38]

I know I haven't been a part of this conversation, but it's unclear to me in reading this whether you understand that QBR (the ESPN stat) is not a pure passing metric, but rather holistic. You've mentioned it with reference to Jones's passing stats, but then said he "also" contributed through rushing. ESPN QBR already incorporates the rushing productivity of the QB. That is how its calculated. Jones's running performance against Jacksonville was the 8th highest running EPA of any QB game that year and his best from that campaign. By contrast, Jones didn't log even one of the top 50 passing performances by EPA in 2022 (his generally accepted best season). He's a running QB who happens to throw the ball from time to time. But we already know that the Giants don't have unlimited faith in this backwards skillset because of the way they structured his contract and attempted to go after his replacement this last draft, offering significant value to move up just three spots.

As to the "Player of the Week" mention, it's a relatively meaningless thing. Jameis Winston won Player of the Week twice in the NFC. No one is clamoring for him to be a franchise quarterback. Rather, it shows that talented (but utlimately flawed QBs) are capable of putting together (relatively) impressive showings. That is not surprising given they are NFL QBs. The real test is not simply flashing every so often, but performing at a high level consistently.

I've highlighted the part of your statement I'd like to address.

Daniel Jones combined stats for the whole year in 2022.

3,900 Yards 22 TD 5 INT 92.9 RTG 60.2 QBR

There is your consistency.

Enjoy!

[sxdxca38]

You have an amazing way of just ignoring everything someone says and putting your own facts out there for interpretation. You acted like Jones beat all these Qbs when we all watched those games and know otherwise. I doubt if you polled the entire forum you'd be hard pressed to find multiple people that think Jones was the driving force behind our wins in 2022.

Hi,

I will just leave you with this.

You literally criticized Daniel Jones against Jacksonville in 2022, when he won "Offensive Player of the Week", accumulating over 300 yards of total offense, outperforming and beating Trevor Lawrence in Florida for not completing a pass in the last quarter of the game.

Just let that sink in for a minute.

Meanwhile he accumulated three huge runs of 15 yards, 24 yards, and 9 yards during that same period, including the final go-ahead rushing TD.

Are you sure I'm the one ignoring the facts?

Or could your biased feelings against DJ be blinding you to seeing the situation objectively?

I will now enjoy the rest of my night.

[sxdxca38]

Speaking of "from time to time there are some posts that people make that make me say "Did he really just say that?"

You want fans to give credit for DJ, the individual, for beating the QBs/teams you listed, while simultaneously expressing it's unfair to evaluate DJ, the individual, because of a poor supporting cast?  So, he gets individual credit for the wins, but accepts minimal, to no, culpability for the loses? 

Using your logic, Aiden O'Connel is better than Mahomes; after all, the former beat the latter head-to-head this year. 

Surely you can see the fallacy in using Head-to-Head to support your position?  H-Town perfectly captured my reply relating to QBR...

Nobody is stating DJ won't improve with better protection/wrs; however, it's incredibly unlikely he'll develop into the high volume passer required to win NFL championships in the modern era.  I suspect the latter is why the Giants tried to move-up with the Pats; unfortunately, they were desperate for a QB too, which drove the price too high for our Giants.   

Hi,

It seems now its three against one, no problem the more the merrier.

I've highlighted the part I'd like to address.

What I've maintained and shared all along is that in 2022 the Giants offensive line was ranked 18th. When Daniel has a decent offensive line he produces, including being "Offensive player of the week" against Jacksonville, accumulating over 300 yards of total offense.

In 2020, 2021, and 2023 his offensive line was ranked 30th, 31st, and 30th respectively, the main reason for his worst years.

No one here is saying Daniel Jones will become an elite QB, but you don't need an elite QB to win a Superbowl. You just need one that is good enough, with a good too great team around him, and if they get hot in the playoffs anything can happen.

And now they have an elite WR to pair him up with, a new o line coach, and some upgrades along the line, so let's see what happens.

I'm now going to relax for the evening, take care.





 

[Uncle Mickey]

DJ has never had a WR who even broke 1000 yards. He's played with the likes of Sills, Richie James, a broken down Shep, and older Tate, and Slayton. Hardly a who's who of WRs.  We all probably can agree too he's never had an OL that would categorize as average let alone above the average mark.

I'm not ready to say DJ can be a great QB consistently , I really wanted Drake Maye, but those who are objective must also recognize he has had very little approaching even average around him either.

I'm geniunely curious what he looks like with Malik Nabers, a 2nd year Hyatt, a 3rd year Wan'Dale, Slayton now as a 3rd or 4th option and a properly coached OL.

 We of the Big Blue Folk Lore have no choice but to be at least a wee bit hopeful or why even bother watching next year?

[Trench]

For those who feel this argument is still worthwhile, I'd love to know Jones career record against the NFC East and the individual teams in our division.

I also know he rarely has won games in last 2 minutes of games. And he hasn't shown an ability to score before halftime. Like Al Davis said it's all about winning and it's about performance under pressure which he hasn't proven consistently