Better or Worse

[Gmo11]

They could have taken Ekwonu 5th overall but they prioritized Thibodeaux. There was an active debate as to who was better between Neal and Ekwonu. So far Ekwonu has been the materially better player (mainly due to Neal being so awful).

But even despite the Neal conundrum, Schoen has done a very poor job overall dealing with the O line mess since taking over prior to this offseason. Every free agent he has brought in has been brutal and every draft pick, so far at least, has either looked awful, gotten hurt quickly, or both. The O line coach left a lot to be desired until this offseason as well, and while that may have been Daboll's hire, Daboll is Schoen's hire so ultimately Schoen is responsible.

By the way, I've been a pretty steady Schoen supporter and still am, but I'm not going to gloss over areas where I don't think he has done a good job to this point. Let's hope the decisions made in this most recent offseason lead to better O line play in 2024 and beyond.

But that's the thing. He played it exactly right because he wanted an OL and Thibs. I imagine their grades on both OL were basically the same. But Thibs was the best pass rusher they were going to find. So he got both. Nobody not a single solitary soul questioned that pick on draft day because it made all the sense in the world. We were told Neal was the most pro ready OL in the draft. He clearly was and is not but at the time the pick was a no brainer. And if it goes the other way and suddenly the Giants have bookend tackles for the next decade that makes the whole thing look a lot better.

[DaveBrown74]

But that's the thing. He played it exactly right because he wanted an OL and Thibs. I imagine their grades on both OL were basically the same. But Thibs was the best pass rusher they were going to find. So he got both. Nobody not a single solitary soul questioned that pick on draft day because it made all the sense in the world. We were told Neal was the most pro ready OL in the draft. He clearly was and is not but at the time the pick was a no brainer. And if it goes the other way and suddenly the Giants have bookend tackles for the next decade that makes the whole thing look a lot better.

We were told that, yes, by pundits and draftnik types. None of us actually scouted the guy. And by scouting I mean actually going to visits, workouts, interviews, watching Alabama games standing on the sideline, reviewing high school tape, talking to his coaches, talking to opposing coaches, etc. We didn't do the work. The Giants did. The Giants decided they wanted to prioritize Thibodeaux over having the first O line pick in that draft. Would they have taken Ekwonu over Neal? We'll never know that. But their course of action is still their responsibility.

Also what about all his other O line decisions? Why does it just come down to Neal? He could have still done a lot better with the O line than he has, even with the bust Neal pick.

[Philosophers]

We were told that, yes, by pundits and draftnik types. None of us actually scouted the guy. And by scouting I mean actually going to visits, workouts, interviews, watching Alabama games standing on the sideline, reviewing high school tape, talking to his coaches, talking to opposing coaches, etc. We didn't do the work. The Giants did. The Giants decided they wanted to prioritize Thibodeaux over having the first O line pick in that draft. Would they have taken Ekwonu over Neal? We'll never know that. But their course of action is still their responsibility.

Also what about all his other O line decisions? Why does it just come down to Neal? He could have still done a lot better with the O line than he has, even with the bust Neal pick.

JMS has not looked like a good center yet as a 2nd round pick.  Even if Neal improves, JMS needs a big jump as well.

[DaveBrown74]

JMS has not looked like a good center yet as a 2nd round pick.  Even if Neal improves, JMS needs a big jump as well.

Precisely my point. The failures (to this point) go well beyond the Neal pick.

[Painter]

All that we fans are really good at is second-guessing and never better than when we are practicing on ourselves as I am right now.

For me at least, rooting requires optimism and thus anticipates improvement which is something I expect we will see this year. Yeah, I know that's not bucking the odds by much when last season Our Heroes were ranked 29th overall on Offense and 27th on Defense.

I have already mentioned how much the addition of a true star No. 1 WR will add to what I believe will be a top-notch Receiver Corps overall, and that I believe the loss of Barkley will be less of a liability than some might think- especially given the addition of guys like Singleterry and Tracy, Jr to whatever is Gray's potential.  That assumes, of course that there will be a notable improvement from last year's abysmal Oline play.

As for the Defense, I think I already have made clear my view that the additions which have since been made to the Front 7 not only compensate for the loss of Williams but will make it the best it has been in quite some time. As for the Secondary, although still an area of concern until proven otherwise, I feel better now that they've added Nubin, Phillips and McCloud to the mix.  And, I must say also that I am quite comfortable with Shane Bowen replacing Wink as DC.

And so now, for better or worse, cop-out or otherwise, I am neutral and non-predicting when it comes to Giants' Quarterback play and that of Daniel Jones in particular in what must be viewed as his make-or-break future with the Giants...and perhaps also for some other notables.
 
In any case, I have only now realized that should Daniel Jones start a total of just 12 games this year, he will have made the third most starts (73) of any Giants QB since Eli's 246 and Phil's 139, and thus of all 25 other QBs since 1970 (post-Conerly/Tittle) including guys like Kerry Collins, Dave Brown, Scott Brunner, Craig Morton, Jeff Hostetler, Fran Tarkenton, etc. Proves nothing, but kinda interesting of sorts, huh?

Cheers!

 

[Gmo11]

Precisely my point. The failures (to this point) go well beyond the Neal pick.

To be clear I'm not absolving him of anything. I was only saying that despite the other things he's tried if Neal had been as advertised it helps an awful lot. And on that one pick I don't really blame him. Busts are gonna happen to everyone in that position but you can either do your best to minimize the risk or do the opposite like Gettleman. I prefer schoens approach.

I'm also not ready to write off JMS who I really did like as a prospect. I think he's got a leap in him perhaps with a proper OL coach now he'll make it. 

[DaveBrown74]

To be clear I'm not absolving him of anything. I was only saying that despite the other things he's tried if Neal had been as advertised it helps an awful lot. And on that one pick I don't really blame him. Busts are gonna happen to everyone in that position but you can either do your best to minimize the risk or do the opposite like Gettleman. I prefer schoens approach.

I'm also not ready to write off JMS who I really did like as a prospect. I think he's got a leap in him perhaps with a proper OL coach now he'll make it. 

I hear you and don't disagree. If Neal had lived up to his billing and turned into a Tyler Conklin/Tristan Wirfs caliber RT, things would have been very different.

[jgrangers2]

To me, you can argue whether the team is better but, to me, it comes down more to process than personnel. The big issue in truly judging Schoen's tenure is that he has not had a chance to get HIS QB. The Giants have played themselves out of the top QBs in each year he's been here.

And in looking at that article, the one place where I'd say they definitely haven't improved is the D-line simply because I don't know if there's anyone there with significant upside beyond Dex. With a group like the secondary, it may not be better NOW than it was when Gettelman left, but it could very well be in the future (gotta see how guys like Banks, Phillips and Nubin progress). When Schoen took over, I doubt many people would have expected James Bradberry to still be here in 2024.

[ralphpal1]

Instead of Neal we could.of drafted G Wilson
Every GM misses
But its more important why they missed
What did they see in Neal
That he is not doing now
Also what faults did they see and thought they were able to.fix and why isnt it being fixed

[AZGiantFan]

Instead of Neal we could.of drafted G Wilson
Every GM misses
But its more important why they missed
What did they see in Neal
That he is not doing now
Also what faults did they see and thought they were able to.fix and why isnt it being fixed

I think one of the issues with Neal is that they drafted a LT to play RT and not everyone can make that switch. 

[Painter]

And in looking at that article, the one place where I'd say they definitely haven't improved is the D-line simply because I don't know if there's anyone there with significant upside beyond Dex. With a group like the secondary, it may not be better NOW than it was when Gettelman left, but it could very well be in the future (gotta see how guys like Banks, Phillips and Nubin progress). When Schoen took over, I doubt many people would have expected James Bradberry to still be here in 2024.

You and I have a different perspective as to whether or not the D-line may be better this year than it was last year. Let me begin by saying that I was never able to recover from having witnessed the abomination of last season's 2-8 start in which the Wink Defense gave up 265 points bookended by 0-40 and 17-49 losses to the hated Cows. Whatever may be the why and how of it, process or personnel, I'm still gagging from the thought of it.

Okay, that was then and this is for now. And so, upon quieter reflection, I must acknowledge that my optimism may be flawed, and certainly is weakened by my "can't get any worse" perspective. That said, I do believe that Brian Burns will prove to be an major asset wherever Bowen places him among 3-,4-,5-man fronts.

In any case, I'm troubled to have to imagine myself in the more usual litany of fan behavior:

Raters  gonna rate.
Baiters gonna bait...or bate as the case may be.
Haters  gonna hate.
Skaters gonna skate.
Waiters gonna wait.

That last one does have some appeal.

Cheers!

[uconnjack8]

Larry,

That's one of the reasons I wish they would have graded the front 7 as a group and not had Burns and Thibodeaux as OLBs.  Seems like they used "base" defense lineups to grade this even though teams are in "base" less than 30% of the time. 

[Painter]

Larry,

That's one of the reasons I wish they would have graded the front 7 as a group and not had Burns and Thibodeaux as OLBs.  Seems like they used "base" defense lineups to grade this even though teams are in "base" less than 30% of the time. 

I think of it and feel the same as you, Matt. As for Burns and Thibs and indeed for Ojulari, I see them as Edge players who in a given situation may line up as a DE in a 3- 4-, or 5- in making up of the front 7 with Okereke, and McFadden, or Simmons at ILB. 

Cheers!   

[Ed Vette]

Larry,

That's one of the reasons I wish they would have graded the front 7 as a group and not had Burns and Thibodeaux as OLBs.  Seems like they used "base" defense lineups to grade this even though teams are in "base" less than 30% of the time. 

I all comes down to positional responsibilities. The 3/4 Mike has more coverage responsibilities and the 3/4 Edge do not. That's why I separate the LB's from the DLine. I am curious if Thibs and Burn have the sand in their pants to transition to DE responsibility. If so, the Giants are a 3 Tech away. Simmons would be my Will and McFadden my Sam.

[Painter]

I all comes down to positional responsibilities. The 3/4 Mike has more coverage responsibilities and the 3/4 Edge do not. That's why I separate the LB's from the DLine. I am curious if Thibs and Burn have the sand in their pants to transition to DE responsibility. If so, the Giants are a 3 Tech away. Simmons would be my Will and McFadden my Sam.

A savvy analysis and questioning, Ed. In any event, we should expect to see a different approach to Defense from Shane Bowen who, while more Zone-orientated on the back end, has had much more success against the run than did Wink. Still, as you suggest, it can be as much a question of personnel as of positioning.

It may be a while before we get an answer in that regard, but it will still be time better spent wondering about Burns and Thibodeaux than it is for those among us who seem unable to stop hating on Daniel Jones.

Cheers!