Three WRs left today’s practice with injuries:

[MightyGiants]

https://x.com/DDuggan21/status/1800869383578800274

[kartanoman]

I don't think anyone is interested in finger pointing for the sake of finger pointing. They're saying it's Barnes' job to make sure the analysis is consistently being done and root causes identified and mitigated. If that's not his job, then whose job is it? So, he either isn't doing that part of the job or he isn't getting results that any of us are able to see.

Keep in mind Ronnie Barnes got his degrees in sports medicine in the 1970s, before the era of modern sports science. So when you have an organization that consistently ranks among the most injured, and you have case studies of injuries that seem to have been handled poorly, it's only natural for outside observers to wonder whether new leadership is needed in the trainer's office.

I guess those CE's he's been doing online haven't kept his knowledge base currency up to standards. Those PhD pieces of papers at the bottom of the Cracker Jack's boxes aren't like the ones of the old days, I guess.

Seriously, though, you are absolutely correct and I agree with you. He has to answer to this and, as outside observers, we cannot possibly know unless we're in the business ourselves and understand exactly what "systematic" means in the world of NFL medicine, health, wellness and player safety. Injuries are something we can observe but we are ignorant as to the synthesized information behind that injury. That information is proprietary to the Giants and the NFL.

The Ronnie Barnes bashing won't solve it. Putting him on a horse and telling him to gallop and follow the sunset to my neck of the woods is a great idea; but I suspect he'll name a successor and has a plan for that individual to take the reins at some point in the future. I know, the sooner the better.

The truth is that Barnes will call the shot on his retirement. Instead of using him as the root cause of all things, perhaps the first questions to ask to define and describe the problem are:

What is the problem here?
Injuries in general?
Injuries to wide receivers?
Injuries, soft tissue variety, to wide receivers?
Injuries, collar bones, to wide receivers?
Injuries during mini-camp?
Players not preparing themselves prior to NFL sanctioned "camp/practice" events?

Where would you like to start? If you start with "eliminate injuries," well, that's too broad to focus on. Start with breaking it down, using the root cause tools I've spoke of in the past and drive down to the lowest possible root. With injuries, you're looking at several direct causes. Start with one and work on it. Use the data and information available that the Giants have, what the NFL collects and, where applicable, use benchmark data outside the league.

I can go on forever and teach a class on this but that's not the point. This dumb engineer doesn't focus on the people until the last decimal place has been fully extrapolated, analyzed, and validated with the hypothesis suggested.

I'm going back to the corner of the room with my slide ruler and look for DrakeW, the Tru Blu fan, and grab the latest Green Mountain blend in the BBS Cafe urn which is just about ready and much needed for this now disabled former cow-pattie kicker who spends his free time plucking cactus needles out of his 👢.

Peace!

[kartanoman]

https://x.com/DDuggan21/status/1800869383578800274

Lol! But those things hurt like hell on raw, cold days, as he'll find out if he sticks.

I wish him all the best in a complete recovery.

Peace!

[MightyGiants]

I don't think anyone is interested in finger pointing for the sake of finger pointing. They're saying it's Barnes' job to make sure the analysis is consistently being done and root causes identified and mitigated. If that's not his job, then whose job is it? So, he either isn't doing that part of the job or he isn't getting results that any of us are able to see.

Keep in mind Ronnie Barnes got his degrees in sports medicine in the 1970s, before the era of modern sports science. So when you have an organization that consistently ranks among the most injured, and you have case studies of injuries that seem to have been handled poorly, it's only natural for outside observers to wonder whether new leadership is needed in the trainer's office.

This is an outstanding summary!

[MightyGiants]

I guess those CE's he's been doing online haven't kept his knowledge base currency up to standards. Those PhD pieces of papers at the bottom of the Cracker Jack's boxes aren't like the ones of the old days, I guess.

Seriously, though, you are absolutely correct and I agree with you. He has to answer to this and, as outside observers, we cannot possibly know unless we're in the business ourselves and understand exactly what "systematic" means in the world of NFL medicine, health, wellness and player safety. Injuries are something we can observe but we are ignorant as to the synthesized information behind that injury. That information is proprietary to the Giants and the NFL.

The Ronnie Barnes bashing won't solve it. Putting him on a horse and telling him to gallop and follow the sunset to my neck of the woods is a great idea; but I suspect he'll name a successor and has a plan for that individual to take the reins at some point in the future. I know, the sooner the better.

The truth is that Barnes will call the shot on his retirement. Instead of using him as the root cause of all things, perhaps the first questions to ask to define and describe the problem are:

What is the problem here?
Injuries in general?
Injuries to wide receivers?
Injuries, soft tissue variety, to wide receivers?
Injuries, collar bones, to wide receivers?
Injuries during mini-camp?
Players not preparing themselves prior to NFL sanctioned "camp/practice" events?

Where would you like to start? If you start with "eliminate injuries," well, that's too broad to focus on. Start with breaking it down, using the root cause tools I've spoke of in the past and drive down to the lowest possible root. With injuries, you're looking at several direct causes. Start with one and work on it. Use the data and information available that the Giants have, what the NFL collects and, where applicable, use benchmark data outside the league.

I can go on forever and teach a class on this but that's not the point. This dumb engineer doesn't focus on the people until the last decimal place has been fully extrapolated, analyzed, and validated with the hypothesis suggested.

I'm going back to the corner of the room with my slide ruler and look for DrakeW, the Tru Blu fan, and grab the latest Green Mountain blend in the BBS Cafe urn which is just about ready and much needed for this now disabled former cow-pattie kicker who spends his free time plucking cactus needles out of his 👢.

Peace!

Have we ever seen a GM or head coach given over a decade of the worst performance in the league type benefit of the doubt?   The reality is this isn't "Barnes bashing" or "pointing finder" it's holding Barnes ACCOUNTABLE for doing his job.  It's not ours or anyone other than Barnes's job to figure out what he is doing wrong (or not doing right).  The bottom line is Barnes is in charge, and he holds the title of senior vice president. You hire people like that to make sure your team is leading the league in healthy players, not injured players, year after year.

[MightyGiants]

https://x.com/GiantInsider/status/1800906216933404952

[Ed Vette]

https://x.com/GiantInsider/status/1800906216933404952

If he's not ready, they should start someone else there with the ones and keep him there until he returns.

[kartanoman]

Have we ever seen a GM or head coach given over a decade of the worst performance in the league type benefit of the doubt?   The reality is this isn't "Barnes bashing" or "pointing finder" it's holding Barnes ACCOUNTABLE for doing his job.  It's not ours or anyone other than Barnes's job to figure out what he is doing wrong (or not doing right).  The bottom line is Barnes is in charge, and he holds the title of senior vice president. You hire people like that to make sure your team is leading the league in healthy players, not injured players, year after year.

OK, Rich @MightyGiants , I'll bite.

You show me Ronnie Barnes' Balanced Scorecard on HOW his Performance Management is measured, WHAT is he being measured on and, perhaps most important, WHO is evaluating his performance, and MAYBE THEN we can baseline the conversation on ACCOUNTABILITY.

I completely agree with you. Our comments, in this case, our colorful commentary from the peanut gallery. Beauty, however, lies in the eye of the beholder. In this case, the beholder is the one(s) who evaluate Ronnie Barnes' overall performance. In no way am I placing teflon on the VP; far from it.

It all starts with the culture of accountability. It can take on many forms; however, when accountability eliminates bad policies, bad procedures, bad processes and bad behaviors, and substitutes them with value-added behaviors (i.e. value to the company, the value the employees feel working for the company), driving value-added processes which comply with good company procedures and policies, which all align to the vision and mission statement of the folks at the top. That's accountability in its purest form. Yes, we know that is a rare gem in today's business world. In the world of today's NFL, given the source of revenue streams, there is little to no incentive for the folks at the top to rigorously shake up their entire organization in order to achieve a standard of ideals. It's all about maximizing revenue, analyzing and managing risk and hiring the best lawyers when risks turn into full-blown issues. All the rest is merely ancillary tasks, in the final analysis, in the eyes of the E-suite, CEO, board members and their chair. They live and operate in a much different world than you and I and, while we scream ACCOUNTABILITY, they laugh at us as they board their corporate jet for a weekend "summit" on the company dime.

That, my good friend, is ACCOUNTABILITY when it comes to Ronnie Barnes. Good man, though he is, but he's an E-series and he's not like you or me, and lives and operates in a different world with a different set of rules.

Peace!

[MightyGiants]

OK, Rich @MightyGiants , I'll bite.

You show me Ronnie Barnes' Balanced Scorecard on HOW his Performance Management is measured, WHAT is he being measured on and, perhaps most important, WHO is evaluating his performance, and MAYBE THEN we can baseline the conversation on ACCOUNTABILITY.

I completely agree with you. Our comments, in this case, our colorful commentary from the peanut gallery. Beauty, however, lies in the eye of the beholder. In this case, the beholder is the one(s) who evaluate Ronnie Barnes' overall performance. In no way am I placing teflon on the VP; far from it.

It all starts with the culture of accountability. It can take on many forms; however, when accountability eliminates bad policies, bad procedures, bad processes and bad behaviors, and substitutes them with value-added behaviors (i.e. value to the company, the value the employees feel working for the company), driving value-added processes which comply with good company procedures and policies, which all align to the vision and mission statement of the folks at the top. That's accountability in its purest form. Yes, we know that is a rare gem in today's business world. In the world of today's NFL, given the source of revenue streams, there is little to no incentive for the folks at the top to rigorously shake up their entire organization in order to achieve a standard of ideals. It's all about maximizing revenue, analyzing and managing risk and hiring the best lawyers when risks turn into full-blown issues. All the rest is merely ancillary tasks, in the final analysis, in the eyes of the E-suite, CEO, board members and their chair. They live and operate in a much different world than you and I and, while we scream ACCOUNTABILITY, they laugh at us as they board their corporate jet for a weekend "summit" on the company dime.

That, my good friend, is ACCOUNTABILITY when it comes to Ronnie Barnes. Good man, though he is, but he's an E-series and he's not like you or me, and lives and operates in a different world with a different set of rules.

Peace!

Two thoughts: 

How is this for a measure?

https://x.com/ManGamesLostNFL/status/1617604238770569216

As for accountability, at one point, I was doing IT work for a small agency. I was supervised by people who barely understood IT. I used to talk to my boss about how I really had zero accountability because if anything went wrong, I could blame it on Microsoft or just start taking techno-babble (and you wouldn't be able to follow what happened).  We both agreed that they were essentially at the mercy of my professionalism and internal ethics.    The same thing applies to the Giants.   These are football men, not people with medical backgrounds.   From Mara on down, none of them are qualified to properly judge the job Ronnie Barnes does.    However, over a long enough time frame (like a decade plus), one can look to results (in terms of man-days lost) to start judging job performance.

[kartanoman]

Two thoughts: 

How is this for a measure?

https://x.com/ManGamesLostNFL/status/1617604238770569216

As for accountability, at one point, I was doing IT work for a small agency. I was supervised by people who barely understood IT. I used to talk to my boss about how I really had zero accountability because if anything went wrong, I could blame it on Microsoft or just start taking techno-babble (and you wouldn't be able to follow what happened).  We both agreed that they were essentially at the mercy of my professionalism and internal ethics.    The same thing applies to the Giants.   These are football men, not people with medical backgrounds.   From Mara on down, none of them are qualified to properly judge the job Ronnie Barnes does.    However, over a long enough time frame (like a decade plus), one can look to results (in terms of man-days lost) to start judging job performance.

I respect you, your professional background and your integrity to understand the nuance you are clearly pointing out in a job role which lacks clear, objective role description tied to responsibility, accountability and authority; however, your actions play a direct, or sometimes indirect part, on the bottom line. I'm currently in a similar role in my profession where I can be consultant, problem solver or jump in and get the job done where I touch product and it impacts form, fit or function.

You know I have always touted the "Lost Man-Games Due To Injury" as arguably the most important measure to an NFL organization, as well as the NFL itself, as it closely aligns with "Best In Industry" practices with OSHA and comparable organizations' metrics. Not only does the metric itself tell a powerful story, but using the raw data used to synthesize the metric a series of derivative metrics can be synthesized along the lines of my earlier post about analyzing cause and effect. That, and other Engineering and Quality analysis tools can drive the study into depths the level of detail the Rams currently operate at and, as a result, have driven data solutions which have proven reliable over the test of time (for the most part).

Your analogy between the IT department and the Giants' Medical organization is reasonable enough as long as the people at the top have defined, and I've used this term quite a bit, "Metrics That Matter." How would the Maras and Tischs know what matters? They're not little innocent babes in the woods. They attend NFL League meetings with other owners. John Mara is on the competition committee, as well as other sidebar gatherings, and players' safety is among the most important subjects discussed in those meetings.

The fact that changes and movement have been taking place under both Operations and Medical is noticeable. Perhaps not yet on the bottom line, but these new folks need time to get settled into their roles and work with who is currently there, figure out what's broken, try to implement change, and that's where we must look at and see what they are doing to instill improvement, or are they "yes men" sticking to the status quo. That's the challenging part.

Working for the Mara family isn't working for a Fortune 500 company, I think it is safe to say. Your passion for wanting to drive accountability is not without merit; however, beating the same brick wall with the same hammer, and not getting anything from it isn't going to get it done; it's time for a different approach.

An idea: why don't we try and take a look at the new staff hired in the last couple of years. Let's see if it is possible to gain access to them and see what their thoughts are on the big picture. They obviously see the issue as we all do. I would be very interested in learning from them what they are trying to do, from their span of control, to change outcomes. I would love to know where they see the challenges are in implementing change.

When folks attend training camp next month, perhaps we can find a volunteer to try and maybe get an autograph from one of the medical staff and steal a couple of minutes of their time and talk to them and ask. After all, this won't be solved in one big lick of the ice cream cone; it will be the sum total of a team working together to help the players be at their very best.

I'm aligned with you, on the theoretical side. I'm very much grasping at straws at what we're seeing and why so many of them go down and can't get up. If the Giants would hire me full-time, and fully re-locate me back to Jersey, and make it worth my while, I'd dig in the trenches and help uncover some of it, but I'm afraid the higher up I go, the more I'll be spinning my wheels; I'll leave it at that.

Peace!

[sxdxca38]

I was thinking a simple way that could help Barnes and the Giants out is this.

Why don't they take a look at the fifty to one hundred least injured players in the NFL, over the past ten years, and then just copy and mimic exactly what these players have done, and maybe just maybe that may help in reducing some of the injuries.

Just a thought?

[DaveBrown74]

Most successful organizations in any competitive industry are ultimately results-driven. When results are consistently poor in any one area, generally both process and, if it is a group of individuals involved, leadership are eventually questioned. If the results have been consistently poor over a meaningful sample sizes, generally changes involving at least one, and more often than not both of the above are eventually made.

Have the Giants questioned either of these things when it comes to their penchant for being the most injured team in the league year after year? Or are they resistant to change and more inclined to chalk their results up to bad luck?