My takeaways from episode one of Hard Knocks

[bamagiantfan]

I remember being in a similar situation a couple of decades ago where everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, was saying, "Where would this Giants team be without Tiki Barber?"

Little did we know, the answer was, "The Superbowl."

The players will have to make plays and and stay healthy to give the team a chance to make the playoffs. That's not new and was a big part Hard Knocks episode 1. They have drafted playmakers at WR. That's where the ball needs to go. We may not have a 1000 yard rusher at the end of the season, but they better have a 1000 yard receiver. The Offense will go as they go.

In 6 years with Barkley the Giants won more than 6 games only once so, lets no shed too many tears over losing him. The fact that there are still guys in the front office wondering what the identity of the Giants will be without him tells me where the problem is. I didn't see anyone setting direction for the organization.

[todge]

Per Rich

"I will say that the view on Daniel Jones and his future with the team is dramatically different inside 1925 Giants Way than it is here on this forum, on Giants social media, and among most beat writers and pundits.   They don't see the horrible line as "MAKING EXCUSES!!!"; they see it as a legitimate factor in why DJ regressed (or, as Schoen put it, "even Fing Mahomes couldn't win behind that line).  Clearly, the injury issues concern NYG, but they don't view Jones in the same negative light as so many outside the building."

Right Mahommes could never win behind that horrid line

BUT. Tommy D and Tyrod were somehow were able to win behind it. Am I right?  that was the big takeaway from last year- Tommy and Tyrod clearly outperformed Jones with the same base personnel

Im glad to see my suspicions Mara has been a puppeteer have been somewhat certified.  No wonder Mara never wanted to do hard knocks

John, relax, put your feet up and let the football people make the football decisions

Schoen has to work around Mara and chose his words carefully concerning Barkley and Jones.

You keep on alluding to Taylor/Devito having the same OL as Jones did. Once again, it was not the same offensive line. The most important element was that Thomas injured his hamstring in game two. His replacement Ezeudu was horrific, repeatedly being beaten so badly that Jones barely got the ball before being hurried, harassed, hit and sacked at a record pace. Glowinski stunk as did Schmitz and of course Neal.

As the season went on - Thomas returned, Pugh replaced Glowinski and Schmitz improved. Taylor/Devito benefited from the improvement.

Then there is the matter of competition which is rarely discussed. Jones had to face the Cowboys, 49ers, Miami and the Bills in the six games he played. We all knew the Giants weren't winning those games but the losses heightened the blame on the QB who usually gets the blame for any loss.


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[MightyGiants]

You keep on alluding to Taylor/Devito having the same OL as Jones did. Once again, it was not the same offensive line. The most important element was that Thomas injured his hamstring in game two. His replacement Ezeudu was horrific, repeatedly being beaten so badly that Jones barely got the ball before being hurried, harassed, hit and sacked at a record pace. Glowinski stunk as did Schmitz and of course Neal.

As the season went on - Thomas returned, Pugh replaced Glowinski and Schmitz improved. Taylor/Devito benefited from the improvement.

Then there is the matter of competition which is rarely discussed. Jones had to face the Cowboys, 49ers, Miami and the Bills in the six games he played. We all knew the Giants weren't winning those games but the losses heightened the blame on the QB who usually gets the blame for any loss.


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Don't forget, Won'Dale became healthier and Hyatt started to get his NFL sea legs.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I finally got the chance to watch it. The thing that stuck out to me was playing that old mournful rock song by Kenny Rogers (before he went country) in the background as they showed DJ recuperating from surgery. Never liked the song because it's so somber. I don't think I've heard it in decades https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0-7fg8oAO4

Overall, I enjoyed it. I liked the banter between Schoen and Panthers GM Dan Morgan discussing (almost as a joke), the chances of trading for Burns

I like that they are aware injuries are a death warrant to a season

The decision around losing Barkley was interesting

[MightyGiants]

I remember being in a similar situation a couple of decades ago where everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, was saying, "Where would this Giants team be without Tiki Barber?"

Little did we know, the answer was, "The Superbowl."

The players will have to make plays and and stay healthy to give the team a chance to make the playoffs. That's not new and was a big part Hard Knocks episode 1. They have drafted playmakers at WR. That's where the ball needs to go. We may not have a 1000 yard rusher at the end of the season, but they better have a 1000 yard receiver. The Offense will go as they go.

In 6 years with Barkley the Giants won more than 6 games only once so, lets no shed too many tears over losing him. The fact that there are still guys in the front office wondering what the identity of the Giants will be without him tells me where the problem is. I didn't see anyone setting direction for the organization.

It's funny, so many blame Mara for the Jones contract, but it seems like Mara may be responsible for the team using the tag on Barkley and keeping Barkley around longer than Schoen would have liked.

[Philosophers]

I believe Mara will never tell his GM what to do, but his commentary does put his thumb on the scale.  I think I would feel better about Mara's commentary if it wasn't so dated and out of touch.  Not wanting to let Barkley go until "they know they can have a decent offense without him" shows a lack of appreciation for what drives the modern NFL.  Plus, did John watch the games last season?  Was that a decent offense with him?

Again what owner does not put his commentary, opinions or thoughts on his subordinates?  Steve Ballmer, Mark Cuban sit at courtside and are probably very involved.  David Tepper sits in Charlotte doing the same.  These guys are primarily entrepreneurs which means they were the likely, primary driver of their wealth.  They don't know how not to be involved.  Because of their success, they think their ideas have merit and I'd bet most do. 

[Jclayton92]

Don't know if it was mentioned but something that was weird to me is the CB market. We know they wanted Denard Wilson and others yet no mention. Maybe there guy is still out there. Just as curious what was left out as put in to the show. Yeah post they can say Brian Burns all day but cb and OL seemed day 1 of FA yet we got Burns which is great but would be nice to know the real thoughts of the dbs.

[MightyGiants]

Don't know if it was mentioned but something that was weird to me is the CB market. We know they wanted Denard Wilson and others yet no mention. Maybe there guy is still out there. Just as curious what was left out as put in to the show. Yeah post they can say Brian Burns all day but cb and OL seemed day 1 of FA yet we got Burns which is great but would be nice to know the real thoughts of the dbs.

Jess,

I believe Schoen mentioned CB as a need.   In the scene in Schoen's office where Daboll talks about Bowen, you can see a huge roster chart on the wall.  You can't see bodies, but you can see numbers by position prior to free agency.

[kartanoman]

Again what owner does not put his commentary, opinions or thoughts on his subordinates?  Steve Ballmer, Mark Cuban sit at courtside and are probably very involved.  David Tepper sits in Charlotte doing the same.  These guys are primarily entrepreneurs which means they were the likely, primary driver of their wealth.  They don't know how not to be involved.  Because of their success, they think their ideas have merit and I'd bet most do. 

Exactly. But, in the end, Mara stood by Schoen and let Barkley walk and allowed his GM to steer the course of free agency and the draft in the manner it played out. As Mara stated, he "rubber stamped" his GM's decision and here they are today, for better or worse.

I have intentionally backed off from providing any input into this thread because I haven't watched this program (NOTE: I've never watched any of these "Hard Knocks" programs; I don't believe they are as real as they try to make them appear to be; i.e. partially "staged"). But I'm taking in everyone's input to validate the long-held beliefs of "cronyism" and "obsolescence of thought process" in the CEO and Board Members' offices. To be more succinct, the "Mara Influence" (or is that Mara Influenza?).

I have no doubt that John Mara is in a "no win" situation and even he realizes as much. I also strongly believe he has good faith intentions to let Joe Schoen run the Football Operations and give him the necessary space to exercise creativity, take some chances, make a mistake and learn from it and grow in the position. The young GM, from his two seasons at the helm, has already experienced the highs and lows of an NFL GM role for the flagship franchise of the league. The one or two clips from the show shared here appear to indicate he does not feel overwhelmed by either the position or his boss. Even if John Mara is sharing information which may seem antiquated in today's NFL, at face value, we all have to remember that John isn't just speaking for John, his voice includes his father, his mother, his cousin, his uncle and his grandfather, not to mention his Tisch partnership. Tied to those voices are a duty of tradition, integrity and family; those are the values of the New York Football Giants and everyone reading this knows that very well. It is easy to have warm, fuzzy feelings when the Commissioner hands John and Steve the Lombardi Trophy, and talks about the Giants and how they are distinguished from the rest of the teams in the league by their values. But it is amazing how we come to throw dirt on those values when things aren't going so well.

It is easy to see John Mara and his family as a bunch of cronies. Perhaps there is truth in that. But perhaps it takes looking a little closer to see through that to understand he must defend the values his family instilled in him, and the football organization he was destined to run one day.

I choose to pass on watching "Hard Knocks." No, I'm going to save my time for an NFL Films program, 100 years in the making, which underscores precisely what I am talking about.

This fall, I have my recorder set for the NFL Films Production of the Ages: "The Duke."

Peace!

[DaveBrown74]

Jeff, you seem to have a very negative view on Jones.  If Schoen shared your view, do you think he would pass on his replacement when he was in a position to draft his replacement?

Rich,

(1) Yes, I do actually. I believe Schoen simply didn't have high enough grades on the remaining QBs to use a 6th overall pick on them. Or perhaps even to try to trade down a few spots and take one (which you don't do it you really like a QB). No matter what your situation is, what you should not do is draft a guy you think is going to be the next Tanehill or Andy Dalton 6th overall. Obviously, I don't know what Schoen's exact view on McCarthy was (nor does anyone else here), but it seems convincingly clear that he did not rule out taking any QB at all, otherwise he would not have exhibited the interest in trading up with the Pats that he did. So I think it is fair to conclude that he just wasn't that high on the remaining QBs after the first three came off the board.

(2) My view on Jones may seem "very negative" to you, but I would not characterize it that way. It seems that your stance is that any view that has Jones as somewhat of a middle of the road starting QB, which is where I have been on him for years, is "very negative." With the exception of the most biased, pro-Jones contingent out there, I don't think many people would agree with you on that definition of "very negative." In fact, if you have been reading my posts, I have said on multiple occasions in this offseason that Jones is not nearly as bad as he played last year. So I'm not sure where you get the "very negative" from exactly. Obviously I am not as high on him as you, SXD, and a few others here, but I don't think your characterization of my stance as "very negative" is either fair or accurate.