My takeaways from episode one of Hard Knocks

[MightyGiants]

https://x.com/PFF_Sam/status/1808509532445753448

[Philosophers]

My takeaways:

They never sounded like they doubt their ability to win with DJ.  Their only concern is having a backup in case he gets injured again as his history of injuries worries them.

Dabs focusing so much on Bowen's stats and not thing like his chemistry with players, adjustments, etc.

To Matt's point, the Giants may have said everything freely during taping but have editorial rights to edit out stuff before it was released.  Also we should not conclude too much without knowing more context.

[H-Town G-Fan]

Mahomes comment was in the context of the Miami game. Extrapolating out to say that Schoen was excusing all of Jones play isn't suggested by what was actually said. Also, that was in the context of him talking repeatedly about Jones injury issues which were "real." Also, are we just ignoring that later in the episode Schoen literally said the Giants have to figure out if Jones is the guy? Overall, I think what Schoen says is neither enthusiastic or negative, but rather business-like (and realistic): Jones is oft-injured, the Giants didn't protect him enough in 2023, and they still don't know if he's the QB moving forward. And we all know what's coming... the Giants try to trade up for Drake Maye. So I don't see a resounding endorsement.

Mara meddling was exactly what you hate to see. If that is what the Giants allowed to get through editing I deign to imagine what else goes on (or when cameras aren't rolling).  Is it any wonder Barkley wasn't traded? Mara was still trying to keep him as a free agent! As speculated, it's pretty clear Mara is too attached to players he views as the face of the team. He needs to keep his opinions in check and let Schoen do his job.

Rosetti was a breath of fresh air. Enjoyed his time on the screen.

I imagine the Schoen/Daboll discussion regarding Bowen was dumbed down for TV. If it wasn't... Daboll's "process" was the equivalent of me going onto Football Reference and pulling stats.

[DaveBrown74]

I felt they acknowledged Jones is their guy this year and also acknowledged that they didn't do a good enough job of protecting him last year and that he really didn't have much of a chance. Still, I'm a believer that action (and inaction) speaks louder than words.

(1) They set up Jones' contract in a way that would enable them to get out after two seasons without it being too painful. None of the other big QB contracts given out around the league in the last couple of years are set up this way.

(2) They did not choose to spread this year's huge cap hit out, which they could have done if they were willing to commit to him beyond 2024. They didn't. This indicates they want to preserve the option of moving on from him.

(3) All reports from the most reputable, trusted insiders suggest the Giants made a strong attempt to trade up or at least seriously inquired about it. That is pretty much common knowledge around the league, and when asked about it Schoen refused to talk about it but didn't deny it.


Jones is the starter this year. John Mara likes him, and I have no reason to believe that Schoen and Daboll don't like him as well. If he plays very well, he might end up remaining on the team, possibly for a long time. If he just plays so-so (or worse) and/or gets hurt significantly for the 5th time in 6 seasons, I am very confident he'll be gone in 2025. Right now, with everything I know today, I would bet on him not being back in 2025. This has been my view for a while, and nothing I saw on the show last night made me think any differently. Obviously everyone is entitled to his own opinion. That happens to be mine.

[MightyGiants]

@H-Town G-Fan

I am not sure you are framing the DJ issue correctly.  Here on the forum and elsewhere, there are many (I believe you are even among them) that have declared DJ is not the answer and point to last season as evidence of being right.  Clearly, Schoen and company do not share that view.  In light of the Giants passing on drafting a QB, I have to say Schoen's differing views were only mildly surprising.

I will not disagree that Schoen is not certain and that injuries have only made him less certain, but clearly, he doesn't share the widely held view (among fans and pundits) that DJ is a bust.  I would even add that I think it's wise for Schoen to remain uncertain as there isn't enough evidence to be certain in either direction.

[MightyGiants]

I felt they acknowledged Jones is their guy this year and also acknowledged that they didn't do a good enough job of protecting him last year and that he really didn't have much of a chance. Still, I'm a believer that action (and inaction) speaks louder than words.

(1) They set up Jones' contract in a way that would enable them to get out after two seasons without it being too painful. None of the other big QB contracts given out around the league in the last couple of years are set up this way.

(2) They did not choose to spread this year's huge cap hit out, which they could have done if they were willing to commit to him beyond 2024. They didn't. This indicates they want to preserve the option of moving on from him.

(3) All reports from the most reputable, trusted insiders suggest the Giants made a strong attempt to trade up or at least seriously inquired about it. That is pretty much common knowledge around the league, and when asked about it Schoen refused to talk about it but didn't deny it.


Jones is the starter this year. John Mara likes him, and I have no reason to believe that Schoen and Daboll don't like him as well. If he plays very well, he might end up remaining on the team, possibly for a long time. If he just plays so-so (or worse) and/or gets hurt significantly for the 5th time in 6 seasons, I am very confident he'll be gone in 2025. Right now, with everything I know today, I would bet on him not being back in 2025. This has been my view for a while, and nothing I saw on the show last night made me think any differently. Obviously everyone is entitled to his own opinion. That happens to be mine.

I wouldn't disagree with most of your assertions.  Although it struck me that you didn't consider the Giants passing on JJ, Penix, and Nix an action (in terms of what they thought of their QB situation)

[Philosophers]

Folks here need to understand that owners in any business (public or private) ask questions and offer opinions.  That is not meddling.  Also subordinates do not automatically follow that opinion.

[DaveBrown74]

I wouldn't disagree with most of your assertions.  Although it struck me that you didn't consider the Giants passing on JJ, Penix, and Nix an action (in terms of what they thought of their QB situation)

I think Schoen, who clearly has not been flawless, is sensible enough to understand that he shouldn't just draft any QB that's available just for the sake of drafting a QB. I don't really take his passing on the QBs you mentioned (or any QB) as a gauge of exactly what he thinks of Jones. I think it has more to do with his and his team's specific grading out of each of those QBs.

I also think they are incredibly high on Nabers and didn't want to pass that opportunity up for a middling QB prospect or a QB prospect who has already had two ACLs and shoulder problems at age 23.

[DaveBrown74]

Folks here need to understand that owners in any business (public or private) ask questions and offer opinions.  That is not meddling.  Also subordinates do not automatically follow that opinion.

Of course I understand that. But people also need to understand that some owners are more hands-on and more involved in day-to-day football operations than others. Mara strikes me as one who is more involved in the day to day than the average owner. I also think he is clearly willing to have relatives in key, somewhat powerful positions, which I think is a potentially problematic dynamic in the building.

[MightyGiants]

Folks here need to understand that owners in any business (public or private) ask questions and offer opinions.  That is not meddling.  Also subordinates do not automatically follow that opinion.

I believe Mara will never tell his GM what to do, but his commentary does put his thumb on the scale.  I think I would feel better about Mara's commentary if it wasn't so dated and out of touch.  Not wanting to let Barkley go until "they know they can have a decent offense without him" shows a lack of appreciation for what drives the modern NFL.  Plus, did John watch the games last season?  Was that a decent offense with him?

[MightyGiants]

Of course I understand that. But people also need to understand that some owners are more hands-on and more involved in day-to-day football operations than others. Mara strikes me as one who is more involved in the day to day than the average owner. I also think he is clearly willing to have relatives in key, somewhat powerful positions, which I think is a potentially problematic dynamic in the building.

I don't think it was a coincident that the two people in the building, who were both out of touch with the role of the running game in the modern NFL and how the team was doing with Barkley, were related by blood.

[nb587]

My take on all this is far more negative on Mara and while I agree that Schoen has made mistakes, I think he has a ton of upside as a young GM if only Mara would let him run the team without interference whether direct or indirect. Listening to Schoen talk about Barkley makes me think that Schoen only wanted him back if he signed a very cheap contract (the $7m remark).  And, I also believe that Schoen wanted to franchise Jones.  Jones contract situation was a perfect example of why franchising was created. Someone has a good year but you're not convinced that he can do to again so you're paying him good money but not committing long term.  Franchising Barkley did not make a lot of sense since it was clear that Schoen did not want to spend big to keep him and was not going to franchise him again.  Mara's "encouragement" to me is the reason why Barkley was franchised - keep your boss happy and I also think that the injury clause in Jones' contract fits that reason as well.  That clause given to a running QB with a weak OL and a history of injuries could not come from a GM as sharp as I think Schoen is particularly when he expended so much in getting out from Gentleman's CAP screwups.  I'm hoping Mara has realized his meddling caused major league harm and adds nothing to the success of the team. As I mentioned previously, the only common denominator in the teams futilities since the last SB win is Mara.  I'm a little hopeful that the signing of Schoen and Dabble is a step in the right direction even if Mara had a setback with his favorite players last year.

[BluesCruz]

Schoen is in a tough spot

He has to keep winning and yet replace the chess pieces that are never going to take him to the SB
He has a meddling owner who has spies in the building.  I know what its like to manage a large group of people when you know your boss has a dedicated spy in the group.  Its not pleasant.

He inherited 2 franchise pieces in Barkley and Jones...both flawed at some level

His coach has shown some considerable thick headedness but he hired him

I would not be surprised if we lose Schoen to another team.  Why stay here and fight windmills?
I could see us losing him to the Jets if they disappoint again this year.....just a guess.

Schoen seeemed unhappy, but covering it well.  I hope Im wrong here.  Where would we go from him?

Answer if all this happens- Bill Belichik.  Again I'm guessing here

If he can maneuver through all these issues and make a deep run the pressure will subside
Winning cures most all friction.  Interesting how Schoen said he hates to watch a super bowl he is not in

I liked that.

[kingm56]

I think Schoen, who clearly has not been flawless, is sensible enough to understand that he shouldn't just draft any QB that's available just for the sake of drafting a QB. I don't really take his passing on the QBs you mentioned (or any QB) as a gauge of exactly what he thinks of Jones. I think it has more to do with his and his team's specific grading out of each of those QBs.

I also think they are incredibly high on Nabers and didn't want to pass that opportunity up for a middling QB prospect or a QB prospect who has already had two ACLs and shoulder problems at age 23.

The Giants also passed on a T and G; I guess that means they don't view the Oline as an issue, at least according to the logic expressed here. 

[MightyGiants]

I think Schoen, who clearly has not been flawless, is sensible enough to understand that he shouldn't just draft any QB that's available just for the sake of drafting a QB. I don't really take his passing on the QBs you mentioned (or any QB) as a gauge of exactly what he thinks of Jones. I think it has more to do with his and his team's specific grading out of each of those QBs.

I also think they are incredibly high on Nabers and didn't want to pass that opportunity up for a middling QB prospect or a QB prospect who has already had two ACLs and shoulder problems at age 23.

We don't really know what the Giants thought of the 3 QBs they passed on.  We know two were drafted within 5 picks of the Giants and one 7 picks later.   That's what we know.  The rest of what you expressed is speculation.   For what it's worth, I think we should consider all actions, not just select actions, but that's just my opinion.

The Giants also passed on a T and G; I guess that means they don't view the Oline as an issue, at least according to the logic expressed here. 

The Giants didn't draft an offensive lineman in this draft.  Are you suggesting that Schoen still saw a big need on the offensive line (the one he told his boss needed to be upgraded), and he just decided to leave the line a mess?  It seems reasonable to conclude that Schoen felt that all the free agent O-line additions, plus a new coach and the hopeful development of their younger drafted O-line, means the line will be serviceable this season.  Still, I know weren't looking for a response from me, as your post seemed to be intended to mock the point I made.