My views on QBs are evolving

[MightyGiants]

@Bob In PA

I just finished reading Tyler Dunn's long-form 3 part article on the state of the NY Giants.  There was much discussed about Daniel Jones.   What I found interesting was these comments from his QB coach

The Giants see another gear to Daniel Jones.

Tierney believed in his new QB early. He identifies specific moments the first half of the '22 season.

-Down 20-13 with 5 minutes left. at Tennessee in Week 1. Starting at his own 27-yard-line, Jones leads a game-winning drive. (Fresh off a horrible end-zone pick that enraged Daboll.)

-To ice a 19-16 win vs. Carolina — on third and 6 with 1:50 left — Jones boots, is face-to-face with a Panthers defensive end, plants, redirects, sprints upfield to win.

-Down 20-13 in London vs. Aaron Rodgers and the Green Bay Packers, Jones leads back-to-back TD drives.

-Or how about trailing Lamar Jackson and the Baltimore Ravens by 10 points in the fourth quarter? Jones completed 6 of 7 passes in the final quarter. Most were in tight windows. Two recipients of those six are already trivia answers: "David Sills V" and "Marcus Johnson." The former was cut Tuesday; the latter hasn't played for a team since.

Each of these defining moments, Tierney looked Jones in the eye and sensed genuine mental toughness.

"No matter what's happening around him," Tierney says, "the kid puts his head down and keeps working and keeps grinding it out."

This sort of strikes at the heart of the perspective that I am talking about.  In other words, it's not just good enough to just show you can be a good to really good QB, you need to show the good significantly more than you show the bad (which all QBs will also do.


I am not ignoring all the other measures like arm talent, processing, pocket presence, size, mobility, etc.  It's just that at the end of the day, the QB's job is to get the ball to the right man as quickly and as accurately as possible.  The ratio of good to bad plays, more often than not, decides games and careers.  It can explain why intelligent people within the Giants organization see DJ differently than many outside the organization.   Both can point to the good and bad plays.  That's why I feel looking at percentage of good vs bad plays is a critical part of a QB evaluation.

Interestingly enough, in some ways, it's like PFF where every play is graded on a -2 to +2 all those grades are added up.  A QB is a sum of their production more so than what they show (good or bad) on any given play.

[T200]

@Bob In PA

I just finished reading Tyler Dunn's long-form 3 part article on the state of the NY Giants.  There was much discussed about Daniel Jones.   What I found interesting was these comments from his QB coach


This sort of strikes at the heart of the perspective that I am talking about.  In other words, it's not just good enough to just show you can be a good to really good QB, you need to show the good significantly more than you show the bad (which all QBs will also do.

Do you think Jones has done that when he's on the field?

[MightyGiants]

Do you think Jones has done that when he's on the field?

In 2022- I think the ratio was acceptable but with room for improvement.

In 2023- no, for many reasons, much (but certainly not all) of which involved his support

In 2024-  Time will tell.

Before 2022-  I think he needed a better ratio in his rookie season, which almost had a boom-or-bust nature.  I throw out the 2 Judge/Garrett years as simply no QB was going to succeed working under conditions where all 3 support pillars were very bad.

[T200]

In 2022- I think the ratio was acceptable but with room for improvement.

In 2023- no, for many reasons, much (but certainly not all) of which involved his support

In 2024-  Time will tell.

Before 2022-  I think he needed a better ratio in his rookie season, which almost had a boom-or-bust nature.  I throw out the 2 Judge/Garrett years as simply no QB was going to succeed working under conditions where all 3 support pillars were very bad.

I can get behind 85% of that view.

[Bob In PA]

@Bob In PA

I just finished reading Tyler Dunn's long-form 3 part article on the state of the NY Giants.  There was much discussed about Daniel Jones.   What I found interesting was these comments from his QB coach


This sort of strikes at the heart of the perspective that I am talking about.  In other words, it's not just good enough to just show you can be a good to really good QB, you need to show the good significantly more than you show the bad (which all QBs will also do.


I am not ignoring all the other measures like arm talent, processing, pocket presence, size, mobility, etc.  It's just that at the end of the day, the QB's job is to get the ball to the right man as quickly and as accurately as possible.  The ratio of good to bad plays, more often than not, decides games and careers.  It can explain why intelligent people within the Giants organization see DJ differently than many outside the organization.   Both can point to the good and bad plays.  That's why I feel looking at percentage of good vs bad plays is a critical part of a QB evaluation.

Interestingly enough, in some ways, it's like PFF where every play is graded on a -2 to +2 all those grades are added up.  A QB is a sum of their production more so than what they show (good or bad) on any given play.

Rich: I have trouble "blaming" Jones for plays that begin with a jail-break by the DL. In grading his performance, I just ignore those plays completely. I would stop doing that if (and when, hopefully NOW) the OL starts to put in at least a slightly-below-average overall level of performance. Bob

[MightyGiants]

Rich: I have trouble "blaming" Jones for plays that begin with a jail-break by the DL. In grading his performance, I just ignore those plays completely. I would stop doing that if (and when, hopefully NOW) the OL starts to put in at least a slightly-below-average overall level of performance. Bob

That's a fair position, in my opinion.  Sort of speaks to my view that QBs need a certain level of support from the three support pillars (coaching/scheme, protection, and receivers).   One pillar can be weak, but it's difficult for a QB to function if 2 or more are weak or one is really bad and there isn't a really good one to offset.

Back to your point, jail break type pressure (2 or more rushers breaking free or blown assignments with immediate pressure) is nearly impossible for any QB to deal with, especially if they are happening frequently and if there is nothing to offset like scheme help or receivers that get open quickly

[Jclayton92]

I think we are looking at a different Qb right now if Daboll had drafted Jones and been on the journey with him. Bad organizations have too much turnover for even good qbs to thrive. Now it's a what if instead of a what should have been.

[Bob In PA]

Sort of speaks to my view that QBs need a certain level of support from the three support pillars (coaching/scheme, protection, and receivers). 

Rich: Yes, that's why I mentioned it. Bob

[babywhales]

Thought processing under duress is often overlooked imo. Very smart people who could easily process information in a calm no pressure environment can not so in a hectic, dynamic, violent environment. 

This can be seen of QB's who can kill it in drills and practice but not in games.

I was tasked with developing a very athletic QB who has a legit shot to ace the ACT's later this year, super strong arm, crazy fast, has the whole playbook memorized but can not settle down in pressure in game situations.

Forgets info he has memorized and can recite otherwise. Fumbles snaps, can't make routine throws...

The kid is so smart that when he goes through the scenarios that may go wrong.  I think he is visualizing his demise.

In some ways Jones's film presents the same. High IQ but consistent mental lapses with presnap reads, switching protections, identifying hot reads, etc.

His mind is one his greatest asset but also his biggest obstacle.
 

[GloryDays]

Glory: My post was partly intended to prod Rich to elaborate. It's tough to describe in such a short post. Bob

Bob, my response was tongue in cheek, as it really was deep. May be too deep for me, since I dont swim too good and did not bring my life vest 

[GloryDays]

I thought of an analogy.  Think about NBA free-throw shooters.  Every player can sink a free throw.  The percentage made separates the elite free-throw shooters from the poor ones.

After some self-medication, I read it again and it did make sense .. now I got a headache   

[Bob In PA]

Bob, my response was tongue in cheek, as it really was deep. May be too deep for me, since I dont swim too good and did not bring my life vest