The positions a team needs for success

[T200]

Tim,

For the sake of brevity, I left some points out of my post.  You are talking like DJ has 6 seasons of bad games.  That, in my opinion, is not reflective of reality.  DJ has had a mixed bag of a career with both good and bad games.  So, to suggest that you are judging DJ on a 6-year career of bad games doesn't seem all that accurate. 

Also, you were the one who suggested that I couldn't judge the defense on one game but that we should judge DJ on this bad game.  I made it clear I was judging all off of one game and clearly stated that doing so came with risk.  So, no one could claim that I wasn't being consistent with all aspects I was evaluating.

DJ's record as a starter is 22-37-1. Now, that's not all his fault but he is the primary contributor to that record. That's not a mixed bag.

Please stop falsely saying I said we should judge Jones solely on yesterday's game.

Yes, you did make it clear you were judging the defense off of one game. That's why my response to you was that it wasn't fair since you don't want us judging Jones off of one game.

[MightyGiants]

DJ's record as a starter is 22-37-1. Now, that's not all his fault but he is the primary contributor to that record. That's not a mixed bag.

Please stop falsely saying I said we should judge Jones solely on yesterday's game.

Yes, you did make it clear you were judging the defense off of one game. That's why my response to you was that it wasn't fair since you don't want us judging Jones off of one game.

Tim,

The main point of the thread was the importance of THREE key positions.  HC, GM, and Quaterback.  Now you are essentially judging DJ's career games as if he was the only one of the three positions that has been questionable since 2019.  I appreciate that you tried to add a disclaimer, but if one takes that disclaimer seriously, one wouldn't have used wins and losses to judge DJ's 5+ years of games, or most definitely not to claim that I was incorrect in stating DJ's games have been a mixed bag.

[Trench]

When it comes to benching DJ with the idea of another QB doing better, I am mindful that DJ far and away looked like the best QB on the Giants roster throughout the preseason.    Locked looked as uncomfortable as DJ throughout the offseason, and Devito didn't look good at all.  I have some concerns that while the QB talent isn't overwhelming, I am wondering if Daboll, the play caller and head coach, has created a QB-friendly system in his quest to increase the rate of big plays (which sadly didn't materialize yesterday).

To be fair, how many reps did Devito get with Nabers and the starting oline etc?

[MightyGiants]

To be fair, how many reps did Devito get with Nabers and the starting oline etc?

Not many, although it's important to consider that he was also facing 3rd string defenses

[Trench]

Not many, although it's important to consider that he was also facing 3rd string defenses

This is an interesting question to ponder in terms of evaluating talent in terms of which is the better barometer. I could be wrong but I'd be inclined to say 3rd string guys more or less will not be in correct position and understand all their responsibilities.

[T200]

Tim,

The main point of the thread was the importance of THREE key positions.  HC, GM, and Quaterback.  Now you are essentially judging DJ's career games as if he was the only one of the three positions that has been questionable since 2019.  I appreciate that you tried to add a disclaimer, but if one takes that disclaimer seriously, one wouldn't have used wins and losses to judge DJ's 5+ years of games, or most definitely not to claim that I was incorrect in stating DJ's games have been a mixed bag.

Rich,

You may want to go back and re-read our interactions in this thread. I only brought up DJ as a reference for you to say that it wasn't fair to judge Bowen and his defense off of one game when we aren't afforded the same luxury as Jones. We have seen 60 starts from him to make a pretty good assessment. We've seen ONE game from Bowen's defense.

And now you're in Defend Daniel mode.

For the record, a mixed bag is a roughly even balance of multiple items/situations. A 22-37-1 record is not a mixed bag. Eli's regular season record is a mixed bag. DJ's? Not so much.

[MightyGiants]

This is an interesting question to ponder in terms of evaluating talent in terms of which is the better barometer. I could be wrong but I'd be inclined to say 3rd string guys more or less will not be in correct position and understand all their responsibilities.

Didn't the announcers yesterday suggest that the receivers DJ was throwing to didn't seem to know what they were doing?  I am not excusing DJ's performance, but it seemed the announcer was as much down in the receivers as he was DJ.  So at least yesterday, I don't think being first string equated to the receivers being in the correct positions and understanding their responsibilities (plus there were more drops than ideal).

At some point, I wouldn't be adverse to seeing what DeVito can do (if DJ tanks and Lock doesn't do much better), but I will say I don't have much optimism that DeVito can turn things around, at least on his own.

Rich,

You may want to go back and re-read our interactions in this thread. I only brought up DJ as a reference for you to say that it wasn't fair to judge Bowen and his defense off of one game when we aren't afforded the same luxury as Jones. We have seen 60 starts from him to make a pretty good assessment. We've seen ONE game from Bowen's defense.

And now you're in Defend Daniel mode.

For the record, a mixed bag is a roughly even balance of multiple items/situations. A 22-37-1 record is not a mixed bag. Eli's regular season record is a mixed bag. DJ's? Not so much.

Tim,

I went back, and you disagreed with my point about the defense playing poorly.  I pointed out what I perceived as flaws in your supporting arguments that you used to argue I was wrong. Now you accuse me of being in "defending DJ mode."

I am going to bow out at this point.

[T200]

Didn't the announcers yesterday suggest that the receivers DJ was throwing to didn't seem to know what they were doing?  I am not excusing DJ's performance, but it seemed the announcer was as much down in the receivers as he was DJ.  So at least yesterday, I don't think being first string equated to the receivers being in the correct positions and understanding their responsibilities (plus there were more drops than ideal).

At some point, I wouldn't be adverse to seeing what DeVito can do (if DJ tanks and Lock doesn't do much better), but I will say I don't have much optimism that DeVito can turn things around, at least on his own.

Tim,

I went back, and you disagreed with my point about the defense playing poorly.  I pointed out what I perceived as flaws in your supporting arguments that you used to argue I was wrong. Now you accuse me of being in "defending DJ mode."

I am going to bow out at this point.

Vilma was exceptionally kind to DJ.

I think I need to bow out as well. But I need to clarify something:

I did not disagree with you that the defense played poorly. I said one game was not enough to be down on them.

[MightyGiants]

Here is an example of something that bothers me.  To me, Flott has been a very disappointing player.  Yesterday, they played Flott in the slot (for most of the game) instead of Dru Phillips (even though Flott took virtually no snaps in the slot this offseason.   I can't help but feel like they are trying to force Flott (so they don't have another bust player) rather than playing the players they should be playing.


https://x.com/bigblueview/status/1833185026990612919

[T200]

Here is an example of something that bothers me.  To me, Flott has been a very disappointing player.  Yesterday, they played Flott in the slot (for most of the game) instead of Dru Phillips (even though Flott took virtually no snaps in the slot this offseason.   I can't help but feel like they are trying to force Flott (so they don't have another bust player) rather than playing the players they should be playing.


https://x.com/bigblueview/status/1833185026990612919

Looking forward to see what adjustments Daboll makes this week.

I've always said I'm not a fan of an HC pulling double duties. Daboll is not off to a good start and this decision may end up with him cooking his own goose.

[MightyGiants]

If this is who Daniel Jones is at quarterback now, NY Giants' season already on the rocks

Art Stapleton
NorthJersey.com

If this were a one-off, offering such a harsh critique might be unfair. It's only one game. There are 16 more to go.

But for Jones, this is how he played when things went off the cliff last year - before the neck injury and knee surgery.

The cautionary tale for quarterbacks in situations such as these is former Giants quarterback David Carr, who backed up Eli Manning here on the Super Bowl XLVI championship team. A terrible offensive line with the Houston Texans, who selected Carr No. 1 overall in the 2002 NFL Draft, and the lack of a QB support system on and off the field early in his career, wound up shattering Carr's internal clock into a million pieces.

Carr left Houston after the 2006 season a shell of the quarterback that came into town as the one who was picked to lift the franchise four years earlier. The Giants better hope what we watched Sunday from Jones isn't the kind of play that foreshadowed Carr's exit well before the Texas were ready to hand the keys over to someone other than 26-year-old Matt Schaub.

MORE

https://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nfl/giants/2024/09/08/ny-giants-daniel-jones-brian-daboll-minnesota-vikings/75101615007/

[PSUBeirut]

One thing I worry about with applying the "David Carr" test- Maybe Carr (and Jones) just weren't good NFL QB's before their internal clocks got ruined.  And MAYBE a quality of a good to great NFL QB is that they are much less likely to be rattled by constant pressure.  A quote from Dan Campbell, talking about Matthew Stafford from last night comes to mind- "It's almost like you don't want to hit him because when you hit him he plays better". 

That's the direction I'm leaning with DJ- he just never had it in him.  And that's ok.  Professional QB in the NFL is just about one of the most difficult jobs to have on the planet.

[Trench]

So many things said in this thread makes me wonder how the hell Daboll got hired for the job in the first place.

[Gmo11]

So many things said in this thread makes me wonder how the hell Daboll got hired for the job in the first place.

He did win a coach of the year award too.

[MightyGiants]

He did win a coach of the year award too.

He was also passed over for the HC job by the Chargers