Lombardi: Giants' Joe Schoen 'insulting to my profession'

[Gmo11]

I often see that claim made, but I have seen nothing to support that claim

I did lay it out for you as to how the roster today is better than that one position group by position group.  You mentioned Jones being terrible as Schoen's fault but didn't get into specifics on positions groups.  The depth chart to me is significantly better than the one he inherited, the QB is just worse and that drags everybody else down. 

The OL has been an ongoing issue but after 1 game, and I understand it's only one game, but the OL on Sunday played better than any OL they've had in about a decade.  They were actually pretty good.  The WRs were open.  I saw it with my own eyes.  Jones had ample opportunities to score points and make this an easy win for the Giants and he just didn't.

[MightyGiants]

I did lay it out for you as to how the roster today is better than that one position group by position group.  You mentioned Jones being terrible as Schoen's fault but didn't get into specifics on positions groups.  The depth chart to me is significantly better than the one he inherited, the QB is just worse and that drags everybody else down. 

The OL has been an ongoing issue but after 1 game, and I understand it's only one game, but the OL on Sunday played better than any OL they've had in about a decade.  They were actually pretty good.  The WRs were open.  I saw it with my own eyes.  Jones had ample opportunities to score points and make this an easy win for the Giants and he just didn't.

I saw your list; I don't agree the D-line is better (Leo as a good 3 tech) or LB (Blake Martinez was playing on par with Okereka.  I will give you Edge, at least on paper is better.

RB was better prior, but I notice you tried to soft sell that by talking positional depth only for that position.

Also DBs are worse, it's again inconsistent to try and pad the current roster by suggesting there my be big improvements. 

When you consider what Evan Engram has done with the Jags, I think you need to give the better to the 2021 roster at TE

Even WR which you called better is currently more projection than proven.

[MightyGiants]

Boomer Esiason had a good point yesterday morning. Whenever you have a lot of controversy/concern/media churn focused on the quarterback each week, it had the side effect of shielding other players, coaches, and management from accountability. 

That is an excellent point.

[Gmo11]

I saw your list; I don't agree the D-line is better (Leo as a good 3 tech) or LB (Blake Martinez was playing on par with Okereka.  I will give you Edge, at least on paper is better.

RB was better prior, but I notice you tried to soft sell that by talking positional depth only for that position.

Also DBs are worse, it's again inconsistent to try and pad the current roster by suggesting there my be big improvements. 

When you consider what Evan Engram has done with the Jags, I think you need to give the better to the 2021 roster at TE

Even WR which you called better is currently more projection than proven.

So Engram being awful here doesn't matter because he has played better elsewhere?  I thought we were comparing Giants rosters.  When he was here he was terrible.  Worse than Bellinger in my opinion. 

Leonard Williams had one good year and a couple mediocre years.  The DL as a whole is better in my opinion. 

DBs are worse but could improve as the young guys develop.

I wasn't soft selling anything, Barkley is a great player that is no longer here but their plan, which is pretty clear, is to make up that production in the aggregate. So that's why it matters there, because Barkley is obviously a top level player at his position.  No other top level player has left the Giants otherwise that too would be relevant.

Blake Martinez was nowhere near as good as Okereke was last year in my opinion.  He had a decent season, Okereke was one of the best in the league at his position.  Feels like you're a little off in that evaluation.

WRs with Hyatt as the 4th best player when he'd likely be the best WR on the team Schoen inherited feels like an improvement to me.  Nabers alone being an actual #1 guy should be enough to tip the scales.

[MightyGiants]

So Engram being awful here doesn't matter because he has played better elsewhere?  I thought we were comparing Giants rosters.  When he was here he was terrible.  Worse than Bellinger in my opinion. 

Leonard Williams had one good year and a couple mediocre years.  The DL as a whole is better in my opinion. 

DBs are worse but could improve as the young guys develop.

I wasn't soft selling anything, Barkley is a great player that is no longer here but their plan, which is pretty clear, is to make up that production in the aggregate. So that's why it matters there, because Barkley is obviously a top level player at his position.  No other top level player has left the Giants otherwise that too would be relevant.

Blake Martinez was nowhere near as good as Okereke was last year in my opinion.  He had a decent season, Okereke was one of the best in the league at his position.  Feels like you're a little off in that evaluation.

WRs with Hyatt as the 4th best player when he'd likely be the best WR on the team Schoen inherited feels like an improvement to me.  Nabers alone being an actual #1 guy should be enough to tip the scales.

With the adjustments, you are looking at rosters that were not all that different in terms of talent levels

[todge]

Schoen resolved the salary cap issue in year one, by signing not signing any big-ticket players and helping the Eagles by letting Bradberry walk after the free agency feeding frenzy.

Let us look at that first draft:

1   Kayvon Thibodeaux   5  Put up zeros in the box score of the stinker of an opener
1   Evan Neal   7   Big time bust
2   Wan'Dale Robinson   43  A contributor but not fully living up to 43th pick
3   Joshua Ezeudu   67   OL   bust
3   Cordale Flott   81   CB   disappointment boarding on bust
4   Daniel Bellinger   112   okay nothing special
4   Dane Belton   114   okay nothing special
5   Micah McFadden   146   okay nothing special
5   D.J. Davidson   147   okay nothing special
5   Marcus McKethan   173   off the roster
6   Darrian Beavers   182   off the roster


On top of that, Schoen didn't trade away Barkley or McKinney despite not retaining either.  That meant passing up draft capital and winning games that pushed NYG out of QB drafting position

Again, the roster is as bad, if not worse, than the one he inherited.

It's been three years of off-season roster moves.  Why are they no better???  How many more years before we see a roster that actually is improved?

Schoen overhauled the entire Scouting Department and changed the systems in place. For those who watched Finding Giants- the scouting staff consisted of a mix of veterans and youth. Schoen replaced them all with what appears to be entry level talent. I didn't see one scout over 40 in Hard Knocks. I admit to not knowing a lot about the staff, but it was apparent to me they were a young, inexperienced group.

Gettleman also incorporated the Analytics Department into the Draft. I have yet to see any evidence that Schoen even uses this department and the valuable information they can provide. Reese and Gettleman also used a team approach to drafting; obtaining consensus among a large group of people. It looks like Schoen runs the Draft and ultimately makes the final decisions.

Could these reasons contribute to the undeniable fact that Schoen's Drafts have been so poor?


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[MightyGiants]

Schoen overhauled the entire Scouting Department and changed the systems in place. For those who watched Finding Giants- the scouting staff consisted of a mix of veterans and youth. Schoen replaced them all with what appears to be entry level talent. I didn't see one scout over 40 in Hard Knocks. I admit to not knowing a lot about the staff, but it was apparent to me they were a young, inexperienced group.

Gettleman also incorporated the Analytics Department into the Draft. I have yet to see any evidence that Schoen even uses this department and the valuable information they can provide. Reese and Gettleman also used a team approach to drafting; obtaining consensus among a large group of people. It looks like Schoen runs the Draft and ultimately makes the final decisions.

Could these reasons contribute to the undeniable fact that Schoen's Drafts have been so poor?


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Ted,

For what it's worth, I have seen pictures inside the Giants draft room (during the Schoen era) during the draft where the analytics people are in there and higher up people are interacting with them (like looking at the computer screen of the analytics person)

[todge]

Ted,

For what it's worth, I have seen pictures inside the Giants draft room (during the Schoen era) during the draft where the analytics people are in there and higher up people are interacting with them (like looking at the computer screen of the analytics person)

Thanks Rich


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[todge]

Minnesota Game got DJ the contract and ironically less than two years later it also may have killed his tenure with the Giants

I disagree. The 2022 season in which the Giants finally made the Playoffs was the reason why they extended Jones. Detractors want to point to Jones' mediocre stats - 15 TD passes and 7 rushing TDs. But let's remember that Jones' leading WR was a practice squad player who is back on that squad again this year. The OL was still poor forcing Daboll to limit time spent in the pocket.

The Giants had no other QB options. Furthermore Daboll and Schoen wouldn't use just one game to evaluate their QB.


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[jgrangers2]

Schoen has excelled at the cap and trades to this point in his tenure. Every one of his misses high in the draft were all blue chip guys that were thought to be can't miss, so you can't really fault him for that. The only thing I really see him lagging on is his drafting of late round picks. With the lack of talent that we have we need all the late round surprises that we can get.

I think people underrate how much the top of the draft is consensus based. In general, there probably aren't many players that go top 10 that aren't pretty unanimously at least top 15-20 players on almost every board. There are rarely any true surprises. It just comes down to how much the consensus was right and how well you can coach those guys up. For example, Jamarcus Russell was the bust to end all busts, but each of the other 31 teams would have probably taken him as well if they were in the same situation as the Raiders.

The middle to late rounds is where you have to find talent and it's fair to say the Giants haven't really done that. That said, 9 of the 11 players we drafted in 2022 are still on the team. That's obviously not a huge deal but it's something. Banks and JMS are also starters from last year's draft while Hyatt still looks like a hit or miss receiver.

[Gmo11]

With the adjustments, you are looking at rosters that were not all that different in terms of talent levels

I would strongly disagree with that statement personally.

[MightyGiants]

I would strongly disagree with that statement personally.

You also claimed Leo was mediocre.  The same guy many years older who had 5 pressures and 1 hit and a 76.7 PFF grade in his opening game.   Compare that with Nacho and Chatman (PFF grades 52.7 and 42.7) with a all of one hurry despite the advantage of the offensive interior being focused on Dex

[Painter]

I don't give a flying f**ck as to what Lombardi thinks or says. What weighs much more heavily on me is that I am hard-pressed to recall a time in which I have been less interested in Giants football and whatever a "he" or a "they" have done or not done.

Cheers! (Simply a habit) 

[MightyGiants]

I don't give a flying f**ck as to what Lombardi thinks or says. What weighs much more heavily on me is that I am hard-pressed to recall a time in which I have been less interested in Giants football and whatever a "he" or a "they" have done or not done.

Cheers! (Simply a habit) 

The seasonal cycle of the Giants over the past decade-plus has me feeling like Sisyphus.  Giants have a bad season, the team makes changes and improvements that spark some optimism, the team goes through training camps and the offseason looks reasonably good, then crashes and burns once the season starts.  Rinse and repeat 

[kartanoman]

In previous commentaries, Mike Lombardi went into more detail.  Despite all the footage talking about free agency and the draft, one thing you never heard Schoen or anyone else mention was the team's division rivals.  Mike Lombardi learned from some of the best minds in football.  They taught him that the first thing a team needs to do is figure out how to defeat their division rivals.  While it's clear that Hard Knocks didn't capture all their discussions, there was enough discussion about how the Giants stack up against the Cowboys and Eagles (less so the Commanders), which would have been mentioned at least once.

An example that was given was the acquisition of Brian Burns.  Mike talked about how if he was still with Al Davis (in his prime), the first thing the team would do when considering acquiring him was to get all the tape of how he faired against the division rivals.  Yet, neither in hard knocks nor any presser that were never any mention about how Burns did against the Commanders, Eagles or Cowboys. 

Another thing Mike mocked was Daboll pulling up stats on his phone.  They have a whole analytics department and he was pulling up stats on this phone? 

Thank you, Rich @MightyGiants .

Reference the boldface snippets above, this is one of the Strategic Imperatives I've identified in 2024 for the Giants to address and succeed at in order to be successful.

SI#2: Close the gap between the Giants and their key division rivals (i.e. Dallas and Philadelphia).

In reading this piece, one can suggest either Schoen isn't employing a comparable imperative to the suggestive example I'm using above, or that he actually is, but is choosing to keep it as Proprietary Information / Not Releasable Outside the Giants' Organization.

Personally, I have not read from any sources about Schoen engaging his organization towards SI#2, or a comparable imperative, but Brian Daboll most certainly has been. Given the two are purportedly "joined at the hip" in nearly every Giants situation, I would find it difficult to believe that Schoen has not focused on building and executing an action plan geared towards accomplishing SI#2/equivalent imperative.

So, what are examples of business goals & objectives which Schoen would flow down to his staff that would align to SI#2? As mentioned above, under Al Davis, get your divisional rivals' film and study them until you know them better than they know themselves. Of course, UTILIZE your Analytics Department to create "Metrics Which Matter" and leverage existing Best Practice Metrics already in existence.

How else can you narrow the gap? As a GM, you have to honestly conduct a SWOT (Strength, Weakness, Opportunity, Threat) Analysis or bring in an Independent Assessment team to evaluate your organization, your position in the NFC East in deference to your division rivals (NOTE: you'll need experts who can reasonably estimate your opponents' capacities and capabilities). This should be able to factor in financial health and details, player/unit/team-specific detailed information/stats/trends/issues and opportunities impacting closing the gap, etc.

Develop an NFL Season Execution Plan where every NFL Critical Event, to effect your football organization, has its own objectives and project plan to accomplish those objectives with project manager, staff, schedule and other resources required.

Finally, the obvious, when you play your key division rivals, your ultimate goal is the sweep, but no worse than a split. When not playing them, try to keep winning as much as you can, and especially against teams your rivals have lost against (i.e. gain as many tie-breaker advantages as possible).

To conclude, no GM, worth their two bits, is not going to consider their divisional rivals and consider how they can improve against them. It is the path to six wins and an inside track to a division title. Therefore, one of their central roles is to understand where their football organization sits within their division and either improve against their key rivals for first place or, if you're at the top, figure what you need to do to stay there.

After Week #1:

Dallas: 1-0
Philadelphia: 1-0
NY Football Giants: 0-1
Washington (Team Formerly Known as the) Redskins: 0-1

SI#2 RATING: YELLOW (Behind schedule with opportunity to recover)
Next Action: Play division rival Washington

Peace!