Ronnie Barnes

[DaveBrown74]

What I said was just ANOTHER reason not THE reason

Fair enough Lenn.

[MightyGiants]

So, it is not possible the conversation went like this

Daboll: How is he?
Barnes: He says he is good to go, but he doesn't look right.
Daboll: Graham, you good?
Daboll: Ok then.

Tiki mentioned yesterday he thinks the deadline to activate someone is about 2 hours before as that is when the tv guys get the info. 

He was hobbling Friday.  He had to end his warm-up early and Gillan started warming-up as a kicker.  Daboll shouldnt need a medical degree to know something was wrong and with Gano's history should have had the practice squad guy activated.

I was just listening to Bill Belichick on a podcast this morning.   Daboll has worked for Bill Belichick.  Bill talked about medical issues an players.   Bill said he tells his medical people-  "I won't medically clear players, and you don't call plays"

If Daboll learned from BB, he wouldn't have been at all involved in the medical side of the decision.

[Giant Jim]

I was just listening to Bill Belichick on a podcast this morning.  Daboll has worked for Bill Belichick.  Bill talked about medical issues an players.  Bill said he tells his medical people-  "I won't medically clear players, and you don't call plays"

If Daboll learned from BB, he wouldn't have been at all involved in the medical side of the decision.

Did the Patriots have a competent medical staff?

[DaveBrown74]

People are obviously free to have whatever subjective opinion they want to have on any topic. I totally respect that, and I would never dream of suggesting otherwise.

I am free, however, to ask questions though, and people may choose to answer them or not, either of which is obviously fine.

What I don't get and what I would love to have help understanding is why the intense defense from fans of Ronnie Barnes? I don't really get this, and I'd love to understand it better.

If it's personal, and you just like him and respect him, and you don't want to see a really nice guy whom you like and respect fired, I can understand that on a personal level. If that's all it is though, at what point does that start to conflict with your interests as a Giants fan who wants the absolute best for this team no matter what?

If it's because you think he's really good at his job and that the criticism of him is unfounded, great, I would love to understand that better. Please help me do so. I am open minded, but the data simply is not on your side in this argument, and we're talking about a very material amount of data, well more than enough from which to draw conclusions.

Here is what I see: I see a justifiably beloved figure within the organization. A man who is not just loved by the players but who has a special relationship with ownership. Any reasonable person who has watched a video with him in it can see pretty quickly that he is a great guy. And I have no doubt that for most of his career he was a great trainer. His reputation is sterling.

But all of the above doesn't mean he's great at his job today. The evidence overwhelmingly suggests he is not. Or, at the very least, the evidence overwhelmingly suggests the Giants do a poor job (relative to the league) at keeping their players healthy, and that characterization is applicable to a very large sample size. He is the leader of the department responsible for this part of the team.

Is it all Barnes' fault? I don't know, but I do know that he is in charge. Generally speaking, in any large organization, when the end results of any one unit are substandard, leadership justifiably gets questioned. If performance is poor, it doesn't automatically mean the person who is at the top is bad at his job, but it usually means something in the process isn't working. And that falls on leadership.

This is how I view Barnes right now. I don't know for sure if he's personally doing a bad job when he come in to work every day. I am pretty confident he is doing his best. That doesn't mean it's good though. And I don't see why people have such a hard time with that. If Barnes is such is such a beloved figure, give him some fancy "senior consultant" title and keep his salary intact and allow him to keep a seat at the table. I'm not suggesting anyone disrespect him. But if the results are not up to scratch, a leadership change is a reasonable thing to call for. We as fans call for it all the time with coaches and GMs. Why would training and medical staff be spared the same judgement?

[coggs]

People are obviously free to have whatever subjective opinion they want to have on any topic. I totally respect that, and I would never dream of suggesting otherwise.

I am free, however, to ask questions though, and people may choose to answer them or not, either of which is obviously fine.

What I don't get and what I would love to have help understanding is why the intense defense from fans of Ronnie Barnes? I don't really get this, and I'd love to understand it better.

If it's personal, and you just like him and respect him, and you don't want to see a really nice guy whom you like and respect fired, I can understand that on a personal level. If that's all it is though, at what point does that start to conflict with your interests as a Giants fan who wants the absolute best for this team no matter what?

If it's because you think he's really good at his job and that the criticism of him is unfounded, great, I would love to understand that better. Please help me do so. I am open minded, but the data simply is not on your side in this argument, and we're talking about a very material amount of data, well more than enough from which to draw conclusions.

Here is what I see: I see a justifiably beloved figure within the organization. A man who is not just loved by the players but who has a special relationship with ownership. Any reasonable person who has watched a video with him in it can see pretty quickly that he is a great guy. And I have no doubt that for most of his career he was a great trainer. His reputation is sterling.

But all of the above doesn't mean he's great at his job today. The evidence overwhelmingly suggests he is not. Or, at the very least, the evidence overwhelmingly suggests the Giants do a poor job (relative to the league) at keeping their players healthy, and that characterization is applicable to a very large sample size. He is the leader of the department responsible for this part of the team.

Is it all Barnes' fault? I don't know, but I do know that he is in charge. Generally speaking, in any large organization, when the end results of any one unit are substandard, leadership justifiably gets questioned. If performance is poor, it doesn't automatically mean the person who is at the top is bad at his job, but it usually means something in the process isn't working. And that falls on leadership.

This is how I view Barnes right now. I don't know for sure if he's personally doing a bad job when he come in to work every day. I am pretty confident he is doing his best. That doesn't mean it's good though. And I don't see why people have such a hard time with that. If Barnes is such is such a beloved figure, give him some fancy "senior consultant" title and keep his salary intact and allow him to keep a seat at the table. I'm not suggesting anyone disrespect him. But if the results are not up to scratch, a leadership change is a reasonable thing to call for. We as fans call for it all the time with coaches and GMs. Why would training and medical staff be spared the same judgement?

On my end, it is not that I am a "fan" of Ronnie Barnes.  If he left or was fired tomorrow, I would not care.  I just think people are overrating the role he plays here.  Remember, there is a difference between a player being hurt and being injured.  By the time he warmed-up, it was too late to activate the Practice Squad guy it seems.  If I had to place a wager on what happened in conversation Sunday, I would bet Gano said something like, "It hurts, but I can kick.."  Now, should they have told him to not get involved in the coverage?  Yes.  Would he have had his normal range on fg's?  doubt it, but still a better range than anyone else they had available to kick.

[DaveBrown74]

On my end, it is not that I am a "fan" of Ronnie Barnes.  If he left or was fired tomorrow, I would not care.  I just think people are overrating the role he plays here.  Remember, there is a difference between a player being hurt and being injured.  By the time he warmed-up, it was too late to activate the Practice Squad guy it seems.  If I had to place a wager on what happened in conversation Sunday, I would bet Gano said something like, "It hurts, but I can kick.."  Now, should they have told him to not get involved in the coverage?  Yes.  Would he have had his normal range on fg's?  doubt it, but still a better range than anyone else they had available to kick.

I hear you.

I'm not really isolating the Gano incident though in making the above comment. More the last decade and the giants' big data results versus the league. My comment was more general.

And to be clear I didn't even pin it all on Barnes. I just think when the results of any department in a big organization are consistently worst or near worst in class among the competition over a very large sample, which is 100% the case with the Giants and player health, at some point it's more than fair to question leadership of said department. I mean that happens in any well run organization that tends to get good overall results versus its competitors.

[AZGiantFan]

TBH, I don't really see all that much 'intense defense' of him from many fans.

[kartanoman]

I hear you.

I'm not really isolating the Gano incident though in making the above comment. More the last decade and the giants' big data results versus the league. My comment was more general.

And to be clear I didn't even pin it all on Barnes. I just think when the results of any department in a big organization are consistently worst or near worst in class among the competition over a very large sample, which is 100% the case with the Giants and player health, at some point it's more than fair to question leadership of said department. I mean that happens in any well run organization that tends to get good overall results versus its competitors.

You are one of the most thoughtful and articulate people on this board and a pleasure to have a conversation with, to include this very thread.

To your post above, about individuals not questioning Barnes' culpability in this case, or as a whole over the last 40+ years, I believe there are camps which range from "good guy, heart of gold, valued in the organization but not providing optimal leadership in medical corrective and preventive programs and protocols" to "he's a witch, burn him, as if he was a bit player in Monty Python and the Holy Grail."

I've been impressed with the fact the man continues to impress his skillset both inside AND outside the NFL. Does that mean he is the best of the best in managing of NFL team? Well, that's why I constantly beat the drum of using "Metrics that Matter" and, in his case, "Lost Man-Games due to Injury" is as objective as it gets. Every year, the Giants sit by themselves at the far right of that chart and lead the pack. From there, you can break it down any way you see fit to isolate soft tissue injuries to skill players or any criteria you believe tells a story.

When you have objective evidence, and can put that in Ronnie's face and ask him to explain, and what he is doing about it, maybe then we can judge him more fairly.

But don't think for one moment your perceptions are misleading you. He's a qualified leader to run an organization in the NFL, per John Mara, owner of the New York Football Giants.

See what I did there?

Peace!

[MrGap92]

I was just listening to Bill Belichick on a podcast this morning.   Daboll has worked for Bill Belichick.  Bill talked about medical issues an players.   Bill said he tells his medical people-  "I won't medically clear players, and you don't call plays"

If Daboll learned from BB, he wouldn't have been at all involved in the medical side of the decision.

Exactly how it should be, let the people do the jobs they are paid to do, the unfortunate thing is Barnes is not good at his

[AZGiantFan]

There are certain jobs where you have overall responsibility over a whole department.  For example, the GM has overall responsibility for the whole football operation.  If you have a GM over a significant time period and keep getting substandard results then it's the GM's "fault".  You don't have to analyze the detailed specifics of where the GM went wrong, it's enough that he kept getting substandard results.  So you replace him.

That's how I feel about Barnes.  He's responsible for the medical and training side of things.  And, for whatever reason, that operation has had seriously substandard results for a long time.  So, IMO, he needs to be replaced.

[andrew_nyGiants]

Yeah and Mara doesn't meddle. LOL!

If Barnes had any class he'd retire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[MightyGiants]

You are one of the most thoughtful and articulate people on this board and a pleasure to have a conversation with, to include this very thread.

To your post above, about individuals not questioning Barnes' culpability in this case, or as a whole over the last 40+ years, I believe there are camps which range from "good guy, heart of gold, valued in the organization but not providing optimal leadership in medical corrective and preventive programs and protocols" to "he's a witch, burn him, as if he was a bit player in Monty Python and the Holy Grail."

I've been impressed with the fact the man continues to impress his skillset both inside AND outside the NFL. Does that mean he is the best of the best in managing of NFL team? Well, that's why I constantly beat the drum of using "Metrics that Matter" and, in his case, "Lost Man-Games due to Injury" is as objective as it gets. Every year, the Giants sit by themselves at the far right of that chart and lead the pack. From there, you can break it down any way you see fit to isolate soft tissue injuries to skill players or any criteria you believe tells a story.

When you have objective evidence, and can put that in Ronnie's face and ask him to explain, and what he is doing about it, maybe then we can judge him more fairly.

But don't think for one moment your perceptions are misleading you. He's a qualified leader to run an organization in the NFL, per John Mara, owner of the New York Football Giants.

See what I did there?

Peace!

Chris,

The problem with the approach of letting Ronnie explain himself is that neither Mara, Tisch nor Schoen have the medical background to judge the answers he would give effectively. 

[kartanoman]

Chris,

The problem with the approach of letting Ronnie explain himself is that neither Mara, Tisch nor Schoen have the medical background to judge the answers he would give effectively. 

Good morning, Rich @MightyGiants .

Exactly! That is precisely the punchline which underscores everyone's frustrations here, which is what my statement was intended to point out, with a slight hint of  .

We've discussed it at length over this past week and debunked the head coach AND the kicker's responses. What occurred should never have been allowed to happen had a COMPLETE risk management plan been in place for a position which is a single point of failure (i.e. kicker when that player is already carrying an injury going into the game).

Go back and watch the 1985 Week #2 game when the Giants traveled to Green Bay to face the Packers. It played out similarly to last weekend's game from the standpoint of having an injured kicker who, had the Giants opted to go with a different guy, might have won that game.

It's history literally repeating itself and the Head Trainer then is the VP of Medical now. Lesson learned?

Most unfortunate if, at the end of the season, we look back to that game as the tipping point that set the whole season into dumpster fire mode. I certainly hope that's not the case but we'll just have to see how and/or if they bounce back this weekend and into the meat of a tough schedule.

Peace!

[TDToomer]

Go back and watch the 1985 Week #2 game when the Giants traveled to Green Bay to face the Packers. It played out similarly to last weekend's game from the standpoint of having an injured kicker who, had the Giants opted to go with a different guy, might have won that game.

I just looked at the box score. Haji-Sheikh was 2/3 on FGs including a 52 yarder and made all his extra points. What are we missing here?