At the quarter (roughly) of the season revisiting some of the PS indicators

[todge]

PFF is basically useless. It says Jones has been great yet he can't throw a TD in over 2 years at home. Also if u noticed my post, I also said maybe it's Daboll fault.

One thing is for absolutely certain - our QB hasn't ever utilized the TE to its max. Especially in big spots. Now he has a shiny new toy and he's locked on him and almost getting him killed because he's going to him too much. Bottom line - sometimes it is Jones fault. He is 1-3 and should've won 2 of those games!

It's my contention that teams win games not QBs. That's why the NFL doesn't assign Ws and Ls to QBs. The other 21 players and the coaches do matter.

Also - Daboll calls the plays, not Jones. If the primary receiver is covered, then the QB has the freedom to scan the field (if he has time) and throw to his secondary and tertiary targets.

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[Trench]

It's my contention that teams win games not QBs. That's why the NFL doesn't assign Ws and Ls to QBs. The other 21 players and the coaches do matter.

Also - Daboll calls the plays, not Jones. If the primary receiver is covered, then the QB has the freedom to scan the field (if he has time) and throw to his secondary and tertiary targets.

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I 100% agree and the fact is Jones cannot scan the field with consistency otherwise he would use our TE guys. Engram left he's doing well. Waller did ok as Rich pointed out to me. Bellinger did well in year one. So the issue is Jones and Daboll to a lesser degree I would think

[T200]

Of course, this can be easily turned around, and you could be accused of always blaming everything on Daniel Jones.   See how that works, Lenn?  It's so easy to be intellectually dishonest and make the sort of baseless accusations you enjoy making, but frankly, I don't see what the benefit is.

He said a lot more than that but you chose not to address the other things mentioned, instead attacking the low lying fruit.

For years it's been about Jones not having two pillars of support: protection and a #1 WR. Through four games to start the season, he's had the support that he's been missing and he still hasn't elevated his game. It's the same as 2022: short passes/outlets due to his intermediate/deep pass inaccuracies, lack of anticipation, and poor field vision.

Jones didn't trust the protection up front prior to this season, and rightfully so. Now, it seems he doesn't even trust himself to just throw the damn ball. Even Phil Simms said as much.

[MightyGiants]

He said a lot more than that but you chose not to address the other things mentioned, instead attacking the low lying fruit.

For years it's been about Jones not having two pillars of support: protection and a #1 WR. Through four games to start the season, he's had the support that he's been missing and he still hasn't elevated his game. It's the same as 2022: short passes/outlets due to his intermediate/deep pass inaccuracies, lack of anticipation, and poor field vision.

Jones didn't trust the protection up front prior to this season, and rightfully so. Now, it seems he doesn't even trust himself to just throw the damn ball. Even Phil Simms said as much.

Tim,

When you start off with a dishonest accusation, I stop reading.  I know you don't agree with me, but I deserve more respect than that. 


As for your comments, DJ has elevated his game with more support, just (not at least to this point) as much as any of us would have hoped for.

[T200]

I think you can make the case that the Giants have the worst catching TEs in the league. It looks as if Schoen puts a premium on blocking at the expense of good hands and route running.


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Shouldn't we look at their targets and catch percentage before saying that they could be the worst catching TEs in the league?

[T200]

Tim,

When you start off with a dishonest accusation, I stop reading.  I know you don't agree with me, but I deserve more respect than that. 


As for your comments, DJ has elevated his game with more support, just (not at least to this point) as much as any of us would have hoped for.

It's one thing to receive something as a "dishonest accusation" but it's not fair to him to respond with one of your own. We all deserve the same level of respect, whether we see eye to eye or not.

Anyway, I don't see that Jones has done anything this year that was different than his 2022 season.

I was patient with him to start the season due to the lack of action from the preseason, coming off the injury, and getting comfortable with his new offensive line. It's been a month now and he's definitely played better than last season. I just don't see an elevation from his playoff season. His stats are good but he's not putting the ball in the end zone or getting his guys into position to do the same.

[TDToomer]

Tim,

When you start off with a dishonest accusation, I stop reading.  I know you don't agree with me, but I deserve more respect than that. 


As for your comments, DJ has elevated his game with more support, just (not at least to this point) as much as any of us would have hoped for.

Why are you always so defensive when anyone challenges your opinion? This is a sports forum!

[MightyGiants]

It's one thing to receive something as a "dishonest accusation" but it's not fair to him to respond with one of your own. We all deserve the same level of respect, whether we see eye to eye or not.

Anyway, I don't see that Jones has done anything this year that was different than his 2022 season.

I was patient with him to start the season due to the lack of action from the preseason, coming off the injury, and getting comfortable with his new offensive line. It's been a month now and he's definitely played better than last season. I just don't see an elevation from his playoff season. His stats are good but he's not putting the ball in the end zone or getting his guys into position to do the same.

Tim,

Mine was a point, not an accusation, and I think you know that.  Hey, I understand you think people should be free to be disrespectful and take shots at me.  I have made my peace with your view and deal with it as best I can.


As for Jones, I don't think we can ignore the 2023 season. DJ has improved since then (he is at least at his 2022 level). I suspect (or perhaps hope) that as DJ gets more comfortable with NFL-caliber protection, he will continue to improve.  DJ has had the crap beaten out of him.  I don't think you can turn off the trauma of that like one shuts off a light switch.  Unfortunately, if a player is able to overcome that sort of bad experience it takes more time than we like.

[Philosophers]

I have never been a Jones hater because of the character of the young mam.  He works at his craft tirelessly and he has never pointed a finger at anyone.  How can you not root for a guy like that?

That said, I've watched in utter frustration how now, with more supporting help in better OL protection and improved WR play, he simply misses reads and worse, throws to players on 3rd down who are so short of the first down marker and have zero chance of getting there.  It happens over and over.

As much as I like him, he's proven to me not to be a QB who can boldly lead the Giants.  A QB needs to have some boldness inside him.  DJ does not.  We have to turn the page after this season.

We are headed for another 5 win type season.  Dabs has not transformed the offense — his specialty.  His dink and dunk generates nothing.  He is never bold when he needs to be.

[MightyGiants]

Why are you always so defensive when anyone challenges your opinion? This is a sports forum!

Why are you misrepresenting me?  Len accused me of:

"Once again it's always someone else's fault and not Jones's."

That isn't "questioning an opinion"; that is a personal attack on my character and judgment.  Why are people like you and Len so dishonest?  Why do you two feel like you need to attack people on a personal level just because they don't agree with you?

As you said, this is a sports forum.  You don't need to attack people on a personal level because they don't agree with you.

I am sure @T200 is happy to see me deal with yet another dishonest swipe at my character. 

 

[MightyGiants]

I have never been a Jones hater because of the character of the young mam.  He works at his craft tirelessly and he has never pointed a finger at anyone.  How can you not root for a guy like that?

That said, I've watched in utter frustration how now, with more supporting help in better OL protection and improved WR play, he simply misses reads and worse, throws to players on 3rd down who are so short of the first down marker and have zero chance of getting there.  It happens over and over.

As much as I like him, he's proven to me not to be a QB who can boldly lead the Giants.  A QB needs to have some boldness inside him.  DJ does not.  We have to turn the page after this season.

We are headed for another 5 win type season.  Dabs has not transformed the offense — his specialty.  His dink and dunk generates nothing.  He is never bold when he needs to be.

I don't disagree that barring a significant improvement by DJ, it's time to move on.  I will say I am more concerned about Daboll.  I was listening to Bobby Skinner this morning.  He was talking about how Daboll went away from the run concepts that worked for him in the Browns game in favor of zone runs and having guards pull (neither is a strength of this O-line).   

Yesterday, I was listening to Mike Lombardi's podcast. He quoted Bill Walsh who said something to the effect of, "Anyone can design an effective pass play, what's challenging is designing an effective run game."

Daboll has never been known for his run offense, and with teams seeming to shift back to the run (look at RB production vs. WR production this season), Daboll's weakness has likely cost the team a victory or two.  At this point in his career, I don't expect Daboll to suddenly become a brilliant run scheme coach.

[Philosophers]

I don't disagree that barring a significant improvement by DJ, it's time to move on.  I will say I am more concerned about Daboll.  I was listening to Bobby Skinner this morning.  He was talking about how Daboll went away from the run concepts that worked for him in the Browns game in favor of zone runs and having guards pull (neither is a strength of this O-line).   

Yesterday, I was listening to Mike Lombardi's podcast. He quoted Bill Walsh who said something to the effect of, "Anyone can design an effective pass play, what's challenging is designing an effective run game."

Daboll has never been known for his run offense, and with teams seeming to shift back to the run (look at RB production vs. WR production this season), Daboll's weakness has likely cost the team a victory or two.  At this point in his career, I don't expect Daboll to suddenly become a brilliant run scheme coach.

I agree Rich.  Dabs does not seem to have a clearly articulated run philosophy.  He also does not have that knack of seeing a defensive tendency and playcalling to defeat it especially with well time exotic calls.  Defenses are never off balance.

[T200]

Tim,

Mine was a point, not an accusation, and I think you know that.  Hey, I understand you think people should be free to be disrespectful and take shots at me.  I have made my peace with your view and deal with it as best I can.

I accept that that is YOUR understanding but I can assure you, and I'm putting this out there as a matter of record, that I do not think that people should be free to be disrespectful and take shots at you. I've never said that or shown that.

I will speak out when I feel like you're being hypocritical, which I have done in this case with Len. And, in doing so, I was not disrespectful to you, nor did I misrepresent what you said, as you clearly did with me.

[T200]

As for Jones, I don't think we can ignore the 2023 season. DJ has improved since then (he is at least at his 2022 level). I suspect (or perhaps hope) that as DJ gets more comfortable with NFL-caliber protection, he will continue to improve.  DJ has had the crap beaten out of him.  I don't think you can turn off the trauma of that like one shuts off a light switch.  Unfortunately, if a player is able to overcome that sort of bad experience it takes more time than we like.

He played 6 games and wasn't good in them. For me, his baseline is 2022, his most successful season.

As far as turning off the trauma, he has had time to 'recover' from his beatings from the time he got injured until now. His line has shown him through four regular season games that they are more than capable of protecting him. I don't recall him taking any hard shots yet this season. He needs to stand and deliver.

[T200]

Why are you misrepresenting me?  Len accused me of:


I am sure @T200 is happy to see me deal with yet another dishonest swipe at my character. 

 

Prime example of your being hypocritical. In one post, you express disdain for being misrepresented, then you do it to me.

Respect is not a one-way street that only favors you, Rich.