- Brian Burns and Kayvon Thibodeaux -

[WheresDayne]

ANOTHER in a long time of examples showing how woeful (near worthless) this organization is at judging football talent.

Period.

And the beat goes on.

In looking back at drafting Thibs and Neal, and signing Burns, I don't think it's bad talent evaluation.  I believe just about every other team having the option to draft / sign these players, would have.  They all had high ceilings, at least on paper.  So the only conclusion I can draw is our coaches responsible for teaching and training these guys must be flawed.  Also, I don't think we bring guys in that fit the system we have or are designing.   

[Hadron]

The distinction lies in that Daniel Jones production over the past three games has significantly increased, compared to Burns and Thibodeaux which has not.

If DJ's numbers were abysmal these past 3 games, then I would agree with you, but since they are not, I respectfully disagree.

Here are DJ's numbers for the last 3 games

67% - 96.6 RTG - 4 TD - 1 Int

Those numbers put him "around" top ten of NFL QB's.

May I ask, why don't you extrapolate those numbers over a 17-game season, and not just the TD's, and then please tell me what you get?

Furthermore, he posted an 80 PFF score the last game, with only four dropped passes and that still wasn't enough for them to win.

So, there are other areas of this team that are deficient, which is contributing to the losses.

Final point, last year the Giants rush defense ranked 29th, giving up over 130.2 ypg on the ground, and yet Thibodeaux still recorded 11.5 sacks.

So, while using a poor rush defense as an excuse for why they are underperforming, does not excuse their lack of pressure, because Burns and Thibodeaux are also responsible for stopping the run.

I'm now off to work, take care

When you can force the opposing team tone more one dimensional, you'll see a spike in pass rush sets. Who is going to resort to passing against the Giants unless they are behind? Similar to Dallas, you're going to see RBs with significant spikes in their production.

As for Jones, PFF stats are nice, but did he pass the eye test with under thrown and errant throws? Andy Dalton is putting up decent stats but who wants Andy Dalton to be their starter?

[Woody]

Thibs has been invisible in my mind and Burns a bit better but like someone pointed out, Dex is double teamed which means one of these guys should be getting sacks

Thibs is a bust ...there no other way to describe him ...According to PFF ranking he is ranked as the 81 edge rusher. Nice first round pick....superstar in college and is not good in the pros playing the NFL game. trade him now while they can still get something for him while he is on rookie contract.

[Trench]

Thibs is a bust ...there no other way to describe him ...According to PFF ranking he is ranked as the 81 edge rusher. Nice first round pick....superstar in college and is not good in the pros playing the NFL game. trade him now while they can still get something for him while he is on rookie contract.

It's beginning to look that way yes

[DaveBrown74]

Bust is a bit of a strong word for Thibodeaux. When I think of the word "bust", I think of guys who were picked very high and had big expectations but turned out to be totally terrible. Evan Neal is a bust. Ron Dayne was a bust. Cedric Jones was a bust. I'd call Kadarius Toney a bust. Ereck Flowers was a bust. Etc.

Thibodeaux to me is more of a disappointment than a bust.

[kartanoman]

Bust is a bit of a strong word for Thibodeaux. When I think of the word "bust", I think of guys who were picked very high and had big expectations but turned out to be totally terrible. Evan Neal is a bust. Ron Dayne was a bust. Cedric Jones was a bust. I'd call Kadarius Toney a bust. Ereck Flowers was a bust. Etc.

Thibodeaux to me is more of a disappointment than a bust.

Interesting.

Let's play a scenario just for fun. Let's have the Giants trade Thibs to Dallas for their #1 next season and a #4, and maybe a gift basket from Jerry. Thibs starts this weekend with a star on his helmet.

Question #1: do you make that trade?

Question #2: do you think that he will fill folks' "bust/disappointment" prophecy here?

Discuss.

Peace!

[Philosophers]

In looking back at drafting Thibs and Neal, and signing Burns, I don't think it's bad talent evaluation.  I believe just about every other team having the option to draft / sign these players, would have.  They all had high ceilings, at least on paper.  So the only conclusion I can draw is our coaches responsible for teaching and training these guys must be flawed.  Also, I don't think we bring guys in that fit the system we have or are designing. 

You really dont know how other teams graded these guys so cant assume that.  I do agree our coaches have not developed them.

[kartanoman]

Bust is a bit of a strong word for Thibodeaux. When I think of the word "bust", I think of guys who were picked very high and had big expectations but turned out to be totally terrible. Evan Neal is a bust. Ron Dayne was a bust. Cedric Jones was a bust. I'd call Kadarius Toney a bust. Ereck Flowers was a bust. Etc.

Thibodeaux to me is more of a disappointment than a bust.

If I remember correctly, it took Michael Strahan close to five seasons before he started distinguishing himself as a premiere defensive end. He had some very good talent on that line with him in Keith Hamilton and Chad Bratzke who, at times was every bit as good as Michael in the mid 90s. But that competition pushed Strahan to another level where he became a perennial Pro Bowl player and NFL All Pro. When payday came, he got the contract, Bratzke had to move to the Colts to get his, and the legend of Strahan really took off at that point.

My point is that Thibs is still young and learning the game. He now has a Burns on the other side along with Dex in the middle. The defensive coordinator is new and they're all still working to get in sync with each other. They have a learning curve but not the time to work through it since the games count.

This whole thing may look off at the moment, and there is no guarantee Thibs or Burns will have the light bulb turn on for them. You would hope so, given their draft pick positions and $$$ they are making. But it may be as simple as giving it some time before it all comes together for them.

If it panned out for Strahan, and even Bratzke, during his time with the Giants, why can't it for these two in the present?

Peace?

[DaveBrown74]

Interesting.

Let's play a scenario just for fun. Let's have the Giants trade Thibs to Dallas for their #1 next season and a #4, and maybe a gift basket from Jerry. Thibs starts this weekend with a star on his helmet.

Question #1: do you make that trade?

Question #2: do you think that he will fill folks' "bust/disappointment" prophecy here?

Discuss.

Peace!

(1) I would probably do it, yes. After this year Thibs will only have one year left on his rookie deal, and I would argue that Thibs has turned out to be more like what I would expect from a day two pick than a top 10 pick. So to be able to get another first rounder (ie another high quality prospect on a four year discounted contract) plus a fourth, instead of facing the tough decision of whether we want to throw a big second contract at Thibodeaux would probably be too tempting to pass up. We're in year three with him now and I'm just not seeing the development.

(2) I think Thibs would probably be a better player for the Cowboys than he has been for us. They're better at player development there than we are.

[DaveBrown74]

If I remember correctly, it took Michael Strahan close to five seasons before he started distinguishing himself as a premiere defensive end. He had some very good talent on that line with him in Keith Hamilton and Chad Bratzke who, at times was every bit as good as Michael in the mid 90s. But that competition pushed Strahan to another level where he became a perennial Pro Bowl player and NFL All Pro. When payday came, he got the contract, Bratzke had to move to the Colts to get his, and the legend of Strahan really took off at that point.

My point is that Thibs is still young and learning the game. He now has a Burns on the other side along with Dex in the middle. The defensive coordinator is new and they're all still working to get in sync with each other. They have a learning curve but not the time to work through it since the games count.

This whole thing may look off at the moment, and there is no guarantee Thibs or Burns will have the light bulb turn on for them. You would hope so, given their draft pick positions and $$$ they are making. But it may be as simple as giving it some time before it all comes together for them.

If it panned out for Strahan, and even Bratzke, during his time with the Giants, why can't it for these two in the present?

Peace?

Completely different era. People like to make the same argument about underperforming wide receivers and bring up Toomer. It was just different then. I wouldn't use Strahan's career development timeline as a template for 2024.

By the way, I'm not saying Thibs is bad, and I'm not suggesting the Giants should actively try to trade him. I'm fine keeping him and continuing to try to develop him. And I'll probably be in favor of exercising his fifth year option. But if he continues to look like what we see from him every week, I'm not sure how supportive I'm going to be of throwing some big time egde rusher 2nd contract at him. Fortunately, that decision is a ways off still.

[kartanoman]

Completely different era. People like to make the same argument about underperforming wide receivers and bring up Toomer. It was just different then. I wouldn't use Strahan's career development timeline as a template for 2024.

By the way, I'm not saying Thibs is bad, and I'm not suggesting the Giants should actively try to trade him. I'm fine keeping him and continuing to try to develop him. And I'll probably be in favor of exercising his fifth year option. But if he continues to look like what we see from him every week, I'm not sure how supportive I'm going to be of throwing some big time egde rusher 2nd contract at him. Fortunately, that decision is a ways off still.

Your points are fair and it is up to both of these guys to step up and gel with the rest of the front four. They're making some progress but much more is needed and expected of them.

Interesting that you bring up Amani Toomer and the term underperforming. I've always been a big fan of Amani from the first time I watched him, which was a pre-season game against the new Ravens team in Giants Stadium where he had a few big plays. Reeves had him in a primarily punt returning role where he was excellent for a couple of seasons before Fassel started turning him loose. It really wasn't until Kerry Collins took over at QB which was when Amani truly broke out and became the team leading wideout. Had Ike Hilliard not been injured so much throughout his Giant career, I think those two could have been nearly as good as the Rams receivers of the day. Jurevicius wasn't too bad either. But watching Kerry and Amani in 2000-2002 was about as great a tandem as I've seen in Giants' history until Eli and Plax. Even then, Eli to Amani made for some of the great catches in Giants' history as well.

So, I've never believed Amani underperformed. Instead, he was brought up a little slower. Didn't he have injuries early in his career? But from 1998, onward, he was the Giants' big play threat which lasted until 2005 when Plax was signed. Still, he was always there to provide reliable support for Eli.

Peace!

[Philosophers]

I want edge rushers that are larger and bring power in addition to speed.  Someone like a Michael Strahan size/power/strength.

Thibs has zero power.  It's more finesse.  Dance left and right and hope he breaks free.  That is not a traditional Giants edge rusher.

[TDToomer]

Your points are fair and it is up to both of these guys to step up and gel with the rest of the front four. They're making some progress but much more is needed and expected of them.

Interesting that you bring up Amani Toomer and the term underperforming. I've always been a big fan of Amani from the first time I watched him, which was a pre-season game against the new Ravens team in Giants Stadium where he had a few big plays. Reeves had him in a primarily punt returning role where he was excellent for a couple of seasons before Fassel started turning him loose. It really wasn't until Kerry Collins took over at QB which was when Amani truly broke out and became the team leading wideout. Had Ike Hilliard not been injured so much throughout his Giant career, I think those two could have been nearly as good as the Rams receivers of the day. Jurevicius wasn't too bad either. But watching Kerry and Amani in 2000-2002 was about as great a tandem as I've seen in Giants' history until Eli and Plax. Even then, Eli to Amani made for some of the great catches in Giants' history as well.

So, I've never believed Amani underperformed. Instead, he was brought up a little slower. Didn't he have injuries early in his career? But from 1998, onward, he was the Giants' big play threat which lasted until 2005 when Plax was signed. Still, he was always there to provide reliable support for Eli.

Peace!

100% I love this post!

[LennG]

Look at last season for Things. Didn't he have the majority of his sacks in 3-4 games and basically disappeared in the others. We have seen he has the ability to be a game changer but it just hasn't happened.
Is it motivation, coaching or ego?

[Trench]

Look at last season for Things. Didn't he have the majority of his sacks in 3-4 games and basically disappeared in the others. We have seen he has the ability to be a game changer but it just hasn't happened.
Is it motivation, coaching or ego?

With everything posted about the guy pre draft, I thought he would be an All-Pro. Now I hope we don't waste $ on extending him. It doesn't even take a double team to beat him