Giants 'committed' to Daboll, Schoen despite 2-5 start, Mara says

[Fletch]

[/quote]

It would've meant a new GM, HC, and QB in 2018; and blowing up the roster and building a new one from the ground up.

If you want to go back to the Eli years, it means doing an honest rebuild instead of patching the team and looking for lightning to strike. As an example, in the 2014 draft, 2 foundational picks were available for the Giants - Aaron Donald and Zach Martin. Consensus was either would've been great. We picked the shiny toy - Beckham. Nice player for awhile, but he didn't translate into wins.

And for the record - YES. We'd have been better off with McAdoo and Mahomes than Shurmur and the shell of Eli. I do hope you're joking there.

But in 2024, what's our philosophy? Teams play the Giants, what are they afraid of? What do we hang our hat on?  What's the strength of this team going to be? Even Tim McDonnell seemed to recognize this as a problem.

I think frustrated Giants fans are causing a few facts to disappear down the memory hole and over generalize.


They did[i/] have a new coach ; gm ; and qb in 2018. It was too bad it was Shirmur ; Gettleman ; and Daniel Jones! Eli played 2 games until Jones got hurt.

There were a lot of roads to success . You missed out on Mahomes (if you want to call it that / were not picking when he was on the board); you had Josh Allen in 2018. Missed Josh : you had Herbert in 2019.

But to commit half ass to all these things and blame Eli is just over simplifying .

Not to mention instead drafting Jones at 6 if you are really serious about running it back with Eli — how about drafting an oline player or a skill player instead of drafting Daniel a jones at 6.

[AYM]

I think frustrated Giants fans are causing a few facts to disappear down the memory hole and over generalize.


They did[i/] have a new coach ; gm ; and qb in 2018. It was too bad it was Shirmur ; Gettleman ; and Daniel Jones! Eli played 2 games until Jones got hurt.

There were a lot of roads to success . You missed out on Mahomes (if you want to call it that / were not picking when he was on the board); you had Josh Allen in 2018. Missed Josh : you had Herbert in 2019.

But to commit half ass to all these things and blame Eli is just over simplifying .

Not to mention instead drafting Jones at 6 if you are really serious about running it back with Eli — how about drafting an oline player or a skill player instead of drafting Daniel a jones at 6.

I think you need to check the record yourself before you revel in sanctimony.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_NFL_draft - Daniel Jones, #6 overall. 2019, not 2018.

[Fletch]

I think you need to check the record yourself before you revel in sanctimony.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_NFL_draft - Daniel Jones, #6 overall. 2019, not 2018.

So what is your point ? The Giants drafting Darnold ; sitting him for a 2018 would have made a difference? They had a new coach and new gm that year. Shumr got 'his' qb the following year. That sounds like a rebuild the way you defined it--except Jones showing up a year latter  , and it was horrible ; still is. Eli was going to be QB in '18 for good reason. Not to mention it was already of football lifetime ago. All that really matters really was who he was handing the reins to;. Josh Allen...OK .... Herbert with Eli  around a year too long in '19 OK;  Darnold / daniel jones xxxx that noise

I only wish Daboll would have gotten "his QB' a year late and/or last year instead we're going t wait til the end of 2025 the way things are going and Eli Manning was a better QB than Daniel Jones and it is not really close.

I mean look at the Steelers . They hung on to Big Ben for 2 years after Eli retired. They had some success with Kenny Picket. They cut bait after 2 years; they picked up a couple of vets off the scrap pile . they are 4-2 ... there is more than one way to skin a cat , and just ridiculous to be blaming Eli when Jones is still starting here after 6 years ,and will be back in 2025 mark it!

Although on 2nd thought ; having a Darnold drafted in '18 ; sitting on a bench and having the '24 Darnold version now; does not sound all that bad! He would have been sitting behind Eli though and, playing like ass along the way.

[files58]

They are getting this long leash likely because they told Mara Jones isn't going to cut it, he insisted, and now here we are.  By not picking up that 5th year they told the whole world they don't want this guy.  Then after 2022 they signed him.  Did they suddenly have a change of heart or where they perhaps pressured to alter their plan?  And as it turns out, altering that plan was a colossal mistake.  To fire them now would be such a jerk thing to do that while I don't think Mara has much football sense I do believe him to be too much of a kind man to do that sort of thing.  He's going to let Daboll/Schoen pick their QB and prove they can win without Jones.  If they can't they will be gone.  If they can, both of them will be here a while.  They have one shot at this to get their QB so they better do their homework and not miss.

Exactly. Reading through the corporate speak this is Mara publicly admitting that he was the driving force behind Jones' contract.

[BlueMoshik]

We'll see what happens when the Giants finish 5-12 or 6-11.

[Philosophers]

One major Giants problem is their player acquisition is too barbelled.  Some successes and too many non-productive players.

Giants need to hit on players who become great players but the rest have to become productive backups and other contributing starters.  That's how you build real depth.

Example:  2023 Giants Draft

Deonte Banks - average starter
JMS - trying to be average starter
Jalin Hyatt - traded up to get him and he is a zero factor as virtually non-playing
Eric Gray - marginal backup
Trey Hawkins - solid backup
Jordan Riley - solid backup
Gervarrius Owens - practice squad

That seems like a typical Giants draft for past 10 years.  No stars with average at best elsewhere.

[babywhales]

One major Giants problem is their plyer acquisition is too barbelled.  Some successes and too non-productive players.

Giants need to hit on players who become great players but the rest have to become productive backups and other contributing starters.

Example:  2023 Giants Draft

Deonte Banks - average starter
JMS - trying to be average starter
Jalin Hyatt - traded up to get him and he is a zero factor as virtually non-playing
Eric Gray - marginal backup
Trey Hawkins - solid backup
Jordan Riley - solid backup
Gervarrius Owens - practice squad

That seems like a typical Giants draft for past 10 years.  No stars with average at best elsewhere.

Agreed, Scouting and or Player development has certainly killed this team.

Take Neal for example, he was the 2nd Tackle taken in the 2022 draft with the 7pick. They could have taken Ekonu at 5, Cross at 7, Penning at 7, or Smith at 7 and would have had a better Tackle than the 1 they selected.

Or even taken Zion Johnson or Tyler Linderbaum, the Giants could have taken any other 1st round offensive lineman selected and got a better player than they got in Neal with the 2nd selected Oline man in the draft.

[kingm56]

One major Giants problem is their player acquisition is too barbelled.  Some successes and too many non-productive players.

Giants need to hit on players who become great players but the rest have to become productive backups and other contributing starters.  That's how you build real depth.

Example:  2023 Giants Draft

Deonte Banks - average starter
JMS - trying to be average starter
Jalin Hyatt - traded up to get him and he is a zero factor as virtually non-playing
Eric Gray - marginal backup
Trey Hawkins - solid backup
Jordan Riley - solid backup
Gervarrius Owens - practice squad

That seems like a typical Giants draft for past 10 years.  No stars with average at best elsewhere.

Joe,

Great summary that I completely agree with.  Hopefully, the 2024 draft will break this trend; the early returns suggest it will. 

[TDToomer]

That's why I gave you my definition 

There was no reason to attack me or even quote me. This is exactly what Tim is talking about.

[T200]

There was no reason to attack me or even quote me. This is exactly what Tim is talking about.

Where was the attack? I didn't see it.

[Philosophers]

Joe,

Great summary that I completely agree with.  Hopefully, the 2024 draft will break this trend; the early returns suggest it will. 

Matt - While I also feel better about 2024 Draft, I think they need to string together consecutive good draft classes or 3 out of four years of finding 4 productive players per draft.  Teams that go on to success seem to all accomplish this as a precursor to their run.

[todge]

Agreed, Scouting and or Player development has certainly killed this team.

Take Neal for example, he was the 2nd Tackle taken in the 2022 draft with the 7pick. They could have taken Ekonu at 5, Cross at 7, Penning at 7, or Smith at 7 and would have had a better Tackle than the 1 they selected.

Or even taken Zion Johnson or Tyler Linderbaum, the Giants could have taken any other 1st round offensive lineman selected and got a better player than they got in Neal with the 2nd selected Oline man in the draft.

Just like Flowers, Neal refused to participate in the Agility Drills at the Combine. Why didn't the Giants figure out he was skipping those drills because he knew the poor performance would hinder his Draft stock? These players go through every Combine drill on their own before the event; then skip the drills they perform poorly at.

To me, this was a major gaffe on Schoen and his scouting department. Neal should have been scratched from their Board.


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[kartanoman]

I've seen some blog-level speculation and YouTubers speculation about some kind of deal to get Bryce Young from the Panthers, but it seems very unlikely to me.

Honestly, that would be a win-win situation in Daniel Jones' camp and I would applaud it if only to give him a ticket to play for his home team and take the pressure of the NY media and fans off his back.

He should never have been drafted to come here; yet, some genius decided to repeat history with Duke quarterbacks despite the entire contingency screaming Dave Brown the Sequel (with no disrespect intended for Dave Brown).

Now that history has, for more or less repeated itself, it's time to flush the tank anyway (no disrespect intended for Daniel Jones), and start all over again with a new QB. Whether it's Young, or someone else, it's going to be different next year.

As for Daboll, and even Schoen, Mara spent a lot of money to upgrade the team this year and not for moral victories, either. If the revenue streams from the game-day venues drop, because Giants fans stay away, or worse if opponents' teams make up the majority of the attendance, Mara will reconsider his statement.

It clearly amazes me that losing Thomas was the lynchpin that set this entire tailspin off.

What should be a weekend of celebration for the Giants, and their former patriarch, is quickly becoming a reenactment of the original Wilderness Years.

As if it couldn't get any worse, they put the Giants on Monday Night Football. As you would have heard, in the depths of the Wilderness Years, on Monday Night, I can still hear the late Howard Cosell referring to them as "The HAPLESS, New York Football Giants" as Frank Gifford sat quietly, along side him, gritting his teeth.

Oh, the memories!

You can have them!

Peace!

[kingm56]

Matt - While I also feel better about 2024 Draft, I think they need to string together consecutive good draft classes or 3 out of four years of finding 4 productive players per draft.  Teams that go on to success seem to all accomplish this as a precursor to their run.

Absolutely fair retort, Joe. 

[MightyGiants]

There was no reason to attack me or even quote me. This is exactly what Tim is talking about.

Only I didn't attack (despite your false claims to the contrary). Your malice and overt hostility are the problem.  People can't say anything (or, heaven forbid, quote you) without you jumping down their throats.  If you can't talk to others in a civil and respectful tone, maybe you should find somewhere else.  Thanks for confirming that you feel comfortable breaking the rules because of Tim.  It's bad enough dealing with a bad season; the last thing I need is a handful of posters with axes to grind crapping all over me because Tim has given them a green light.  I am in no mood this season.