Good teams draft QBs

[todge]

Don't use facts, facts are wrong and Jones is the greatest QB ever

George Young told him so

Stop twisting my words.


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[todge]

Todge continues to over-simplify the draft process. And then talks about a "recipe for disaster" as if the Giants haven't been a disaster for over a decade.

The very act of assigning player grades and developing a draft board is subjective. Who's to say that one team's draft board is correct and another's is incorrect.

Ok - so successful GMs like Bill Polian doesn't know squat about drafting . But you guys know more. Got it

 


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[jgrangers2]

The 49er's traded for him while Montana was in his prime. The Giants did this with Otis Anderson. They were prepared like Green Bay has been when the opportunity arises. Now, the Giants wait for the need to fill a position.

The thing is that rookie contracts being four years (plus a fifth year option for first rounders) has changed how teams have to deal with the position. It's really hard to let guys sit for 3 or 4 years like the 49ers did with Young or the Packers did with Rodgers. You can't really just store a QB for when you need him when they will need a second contract so quickly and you have to make a decision on that within a three year timeframe.

[todge]

Well for one, you didn't say BPA, you said BPA at a position of need. Now you are shifting from your original comments

You are also putting words in people's mouths again. No one said anything about Maye, I for one would not want Maye. But who is to say he wouldn't be good?

Also where do you get "he played terrible" from exactly?

I live in New England and saw every preseason game and read up on the Patriots. Maye was terrible in the preseason and was unable to unseat Brisette. It's too early to fully assess a QB. But I was giving an example if the Giants were successful in trading up, they would have had Maye and no Nabers.

Too many people think a QB is all the Giants need and many of you would have been unhappy if you got your wish.

You can disagree with me all you want. But I'm not backing down from my stance that it's not all just about the QB. Coaches, officials, bad breaks etc. as well as the other 21 players all impact Ws and Ls to varying degrees each game.


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[todge]

Maye has the same number of TDs as Daniel Jones this season. Yet you keep trotting out excuses for Jones in year 6 while claiming Maye has been terrible after 2 games. It's okay to be a homer, just don't try to convince people you're being objective. You're not.

A QBs primary job is to run the offense. It's not to accumulate fantasy football stats


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[todge]

No one who follows the NFL thinks or expects anything remotely resembling this "automatic success" strawman you built.

The constant misrepresentation of how folks feel about Jones is off the charts on this board... on both sides of the argument.

For the umpteenth time, we've seen Jones for over 5 seasons now with different permutations of coaching staffs and support pillars. He's the one constant on the field. Many of us want Jones gone because there's no evidence that he can be better than his lone playoff season: an average QB.

We'd rather have a rookie QB on a rookie deal and give him HALF the time Jones has had.

Unfortunately we are still waiting for the latter.

Half the time for what? Jones has proven you can with him as evidenced by a 2022 road playoff victory.


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[todge]

I don't understand your man-love with Jones, but after 6 years, every year brings a new excuse

One year it was bad WRs
Then it was bad OL,
Then it was dropped passes,
Then it was a new coach and a new playbook
And now it is bad calls by the refs.

But the one constant is Jones. He has never shown he can overcome even one of these so-called problems, yet some just continue to belabor all the things that are preventing him from being a top-notch QB. Maybe the constant is lack of QB skills to overcome anything bad.

Len - you make some valid points. But you continue to ignore the fact that a QB needs a supporting cast to be successful. His WRs lead the league in dropped passes. His OL is on pace again to be the league's worst pass protection unit in the NFL. His coaches play calling is ultra conservative. This isn't tennis Len.


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[MrGap92]

Stop twisting my words.


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Ok - so successful GMs like Bill Polian doesn't know squat about drafting . But you guys know more. Got it

 


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Oh, the irony

[T200]

Half the time for what? Jones has proven you can with him as evidenced by a 2022 road playoff victory.


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Nobody plays for a lone road playoff victory. You all can hang your hat on his lone victory against the 31st ranked defense but just remember what happened the following week when he faced the #2 defense.

Waiting for Jones to lead this team to a SB victory is certainly your prerogative. History has already shown he's not the guy to do it.

[MightyGiants]

The KC Chiefs disagree with you, and all they've done is go to 6 strait AFC championship games and win 3 SBs.  Was QB a position of need when they drafted Mahomes?  What about the Packers?  Did they need a QB when they selected Rodgers or Love? 

The answer to both was-  YES

The Chiefs didn't feel that Alex Smith was their answer at QB

The Packers knew that Rodgers getting up their in years, something the Jets badly blundered in not noticing

[MightyGiants]

Perhaps I did. In your first post, I thought you were talking about coaching staff stability. It appears you're talking about QB stability.

No, the coaching stability is seen through the lens of a QB drafted.

[MightyGiants]

No one who follows the NFL thinks or expects anything remotely resembling this "automatic success" strawman you built.

The constant misrepresentation of how folks feel about Jones is off the charts on this board... on both sides of the argument.

For the umpteenth time, we've seen Jones for over 5 seasons now with different permutations of coaching staffs and support pillars. He's the one constant on the field. Many of us want Jones gone because there's no evidence that he can be better than his lone playoff season: an average QB.

We'd rather have a rookie QB on a rookie deal and give him HALF the time Jones has had.

Unfortunately we are still waiting for the latter.

Tim,

I have to strongly disagree with your assertions here.   The reality is fans love to site the Texan's turnaround or the Commanders turnaround and try and claim it was all because of the QB drafted.   

[T200]

No, the coaching stability is seen through the lens of a QB drafted.

 

[T200]

Tim,

I have to strongly disagree with your assertions here.   The reality is fans love to site the Texan's turnaround or the Commanders turnaround and try and claim it was all because of the QB drafted.   

Rich,

I really do enjoy having discussions with you. I'm not close-minded and do read what you say. The frustrating part for me is when you present false claims like this and it derails the conversation. There has to some mutual integrity when stating the opposing position.

No one has said it's "all because of the QB", rather the QB makes a huge difference.

In 2022, the line was trash. Yet Jones was able to have his best season... behind a trash line.

2024, the line is much improved along with having a bonafide #1 receiver and Jones hasn't played any better than his best season behind a trash line. So, if his performance is the same with BETTER SUPPORT, maybe JONES IS THE LIMITING FACTOR!

[MightyGiants]

Rich,

I really do enjoy having discussions with you. I'm not close-minded and do read what you say. The frustrating part for me is when you present false claims like this and it derails the conversation. There has to some mutual integrity when stating the opposing position.

No one has said it's "all because of the QB", rather the QB makes a huge difference.

In 2022, the line was trash. Yet Jones was able to have his best season... behind a trash line.

2024, the line is much improved along with having a bonafide #1 receiver and Jones hasn't played any better than his best season behind a trash line. So, if his performance is the same with BETTER SUPPORT, maybe JONES IS THE LIMITING FACTOR!

Tim,

The difference in our perception.   When someone only cites the QB and points to a turnaround, I consider that crediting the QB for the turnaround.  You set a standard where someone needs to say, "all because of the QB".   

To me, if you are going to cite a turnaround story, you should cite all major contributing factors or acknowledge there are other factors in the claim.  Otherwise, the subtext is that it's the QB who is responsible for the change.

I am also not closed- minded, but I have spent a professional lifetime reading codes, laws, and writing factual reports that often can go to court.  So I have developed great care in my choice of words.

Here's a prime example.  I was taking a class to get my pesticide license.  I had a perfect score on the quizzes except for one question.

The first step before using a pesticide is:

A) read the label

B) review the safety data sheet

C) Both A and B


Now I selected "A" because you can't have two steps as "step one." (they claimed the correct answer was "C")

The question should have been worded-  "Before using a pesticide, you should"

A coworker with a similar precision of language (because of his background) agreed with my interpretation that- step one read the label, step two review the data sheet

Is not the "first step"