- The Fallacy of the Franchise Quarterback -

[katkavage]

I think we are conflating franchise QBs and elite QBs.  There are very few elite QBs but a fair number of franchise QBs.  Right now we have Mahomes, Jackson, as elites, with Burrows and Allen borderline elite, IMO.  But I'd list at least Cousins, Stroud, Purdy, Lawrence, Prescott, Love, and Hurts as Franchise QBs.  If you have one of these guys you aren't looking for a new QB unless one with elite potential falls in your lap, IMO.

Where is Goff?

[AZGiantFan]

Where is Goff?

I'd say franchise.  My list wasn't meant to be comprehensive.

[sxdxca38]

The only fallacy here is your constant desire to just get a rise of everyone here, calling them wrong and trying to prove it with cherry picked stats while omitting context, logic, or twisting truths to fit a narrative.

This thread is pointless no once is making the assumption you think they are. You just can't accept others opinions.

You end your post saying no right or wrong answer, then challenge half the people who reply. This thread you made is a fallacy in and of itself

Evidently you aren't too familiar with the guidelines to post here, so I'll share them with you since this is about the seventh time you've personally put me down, and I don't appreciate it. Guideline rules down below, and I quote...

"This isn't a debate board. If you disagree with someone's opinion you can respectfully introduce your take on the subject but never put down or attack the other Member. Good information and content is backed up by facts but if it's your opinion, you should state so. Everyone is a representative of this site. We do not disrespect the players, coaches or the organization."

and

"personal attacks and inappropriate remarks to other members. This includes violation of the PM Personal Message system."

We treat each other with respect here, and don't put each other down especially when we have a different opinion. I've backed up my position with fact, and I don't mind if you have a different opinion then me, then do so respectfully, but you've personally put down my posts, my comments several times now and I'm asking you to cease and desist, as I've not done that to you.

[MrGap92]

Evidently you aren't too familiar with the guidelines to post here, so I'll share them with you since this is about the seventh time you've personally put me down, and I don't appreciate it. Guideline rules down below, and I quote...

"This isn't a debate board. If you disagree with someone's opinion you can respectfully introduce your take on the subject but never put down or attack the other Member. Good information and content is backed up by facts but if it's your opinion, you should state so. Everyone is a representative of this site. We do not disrespect the players, coaches or the organization."

and

"personal attacks and inappropriate remarks to other members. This includes violation of the PM Personal Message system."

We treat each other with respect here, and don't put each other down especially when we have a different opinion. I've backed up my position with fact, and I don't mind if you have a different opinion then me, then do so respectfully, but you've personally put down my posts, my comments several times now and I'm asking you to cease and desist, as I've not done that to you.

Yet all you do is debate, you literally targeted a population of this board with a misguided and false accusation and called it a fallacy.

Nothing you say is a fact, it is an opinion, that you then reinforce with cherry picked stats, remove pieces you dont like, lie and make some up, then when you are challeneged you claim people are breaking rules and play the victim. It is the same thing with you everytime.

You know very well what you were doing with this topic. Respect is something you should learn a bit about yourself.

[StompYouOT]

What are the records of other guys like Allen, Jackson, Mahomes, Hurts etc?  I see Allen weekly and he has overcome deficiencies with the roster and coaching.  Also, we're halfway through the season, let's see where Burrow and Mayfield end up.  Their record is still in contention.

I agree a Franchise QB alone can't carry entirely.  When Plax shot himself our offense couldn't function to finish the season.  Get him Nicks (and Mannignham/Cruz) and the rest is history.  We have WR capable of that play, what we don't have is a QB.  It's not like Jones is being held back by the roster around him, it's the other way around.

[Painter]

The point I was trying to make earlier-rather ineptly it would seem- is that there is nothing fallacious about the term, Franchise Quarterback nor must it be somehow qualified in regard to the quality of the team around him. It is itself distinct and can be defined in its own terms.
 
A Franchise quarterback is typically seen as a leader on and off the field, capable of rallying the team and influencing the locker room culture. He offers consistency by demonstrating a high level of performance over multiple seasons, often ranking among the top quarterbacks in the league.

He is a "game-changer" who can change the outcome of games, often making plays under pressure and leading game-winning drives.

He will have a history of success, including playoff appearances, and potentially Super Bowl victories such that his team views him as the cornerstone of their franchise, signing him to long-term contracts and building their roster around him.

By way of comparison, others who may be viewed as a more ordinary or Regular Quarterbacks, may show flashes of talent but lack the consistency and elite performance expected from a Franchise quarterback. They may be capable of managing games effectively but may struggle in high-pressure situations or lack the ability to elevate the team's performance.

More than half the starting QBs in the League plus backups can be thought of as either unproven or as a stop-gap while their teams search for a franchise quarterback. Thus, their time as a starter may be limited.

In essence, a Franchise quarterback is a pivotal player that teams rely on for sustained success, while a Regular quarterback may serve a more temporary or supporting role within a team's present structure. That clearly is a distinction with a difference.

And yes, it is possible for a "Regular quarterback" to evolve into a Franchise player, but it's generally not where the money goes even in a sport so heavily influenced by chance.

Cheers!

[MightyGiants]

How many Super Bowl contests featured teams without a franchise QB?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/superbowl/history/winners

That was an interesting question, and I used this link instead of the one provided

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_starting_quarterbacks

In terms of winning QBs, I will list the ones I consider non-franchise and borderline franchise (they could be considered franchise but just barely)

Non-franchise

Nick Foles
Trent Dilfer
Mark Rypien
Jeff Hostetler*

Borderline Franchise

Joe Flacco
Brad Johnson
Jim McMahon

So out of 58 Super Bowls, you had roughly 7 men who weren't solid franchise QBs or elite QBs.   No doubt a case could be made to eliminate Hostetler due to special circumstances and I am sure some might argue another one or two off the list.

I think more importantly with the possible exception of Trent Dilfer the rest of the list at least played like a franchise QB for most or all of the Super Bowl season

[sxdxca38]

Yet all you do is debate, you literally targeted a population of this board with a misguided and false accusation and called it a fallacy.

Nothing you say is a fact, it is an opinion, that you then reinforce with cherry picked stats, remove pieces you dont like, lie and make some up, then when you are challeneged you claim people are breaking rules and play the victim. It is the same thing with you everytime.

You know very well what you were doing with this topic. Respect is something you should learn a bit about yourself.

These are exactly the rules you are breaking.

Accusing someone of false accusations is an attack on a poster when that was never my intention.

Calling someone a liar when there were no lies provided is another attack.

The only person who challenged me personally was King, who said I was wrong, and I respectfully answered him back with sound logic.

When I share posts about positive Daniel Jones stats this has bothered you, because it goes against what you want, and you've come after me personally about it, even highlighting my name.

A more mature response is to show factual data that backs up your point, but continually attacking a poster with ad hominem attacks and accusations is not tolerated here.

Interestingly enough, in the past there was a former poster named AP44 who used to attack me similarly like you do, even threatened me with a private message, and he was banned not once but twice.

[Ed Vette]

That was an interesting question, and I used this link instead of the one provided

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_starting_quarterbacks

In terms of winning QBs, I will list the ones I consider non-franchise and borderline franchise (they could be considered franchise but just barely)

Non-franchise

Nick Foles
Trent Dilfer
Mark Rypien
Jeff Hostetler*

Borderline Franchise

Joe Flacco
Brad Johnson
Jim McMahon

So out of 58 Super Bowls, you had roughly 7 men who weren't solid franchise QBs or elite QBs.   No doubt a case could be made to eliminate Hostetler due to special circumstances and I am sure some might argue another one or two off the list.

I think more importantly with the possible exception of Trent Dilfer the rest of the list at least played like a franchise QB for most or all of the Super Bowl season

Unrelated, but imagine a game between the 85 Bears and the 2000 Ravens. I have to go with the 85 Bears.

[MrGap92]

These are exactly the rules you are breaking.

Accusing someone of false accusations is an attack on a poster when that was never my intention.

Calling someone a liar when there were no lies provided is another attack.

The only person who challenged me personally was King, who said I was wrong, and I respectfully answered him back with sound logic.

When I share posts about positive Daniel Jones stats this has bothered you, because it goes against what you want, and you've come after me personally about it, even highlighting my name.

A more mature response is to show factual data that backs up your point, but continually attacking a poster with ad hominem attacks and accusations is not tolerated here.

Interestingly enough, in the past there was a former poster named AP44 who used to attack me similarly like you do, even threatened me with a private message, and he was banned not once but twice.

The creation of this thread in and of itself was an attack, but the funny thing is the people you targeted, never msde the claims you say they do, you put words in their mouth, and then ran with it.

[sxdxca38]

The creation of this thread in and of itself was an attack, but the funny thing is the people you targeted, never msde the claims you say they do, you put words in their mouth, and then ran with it.

Once again you've provided absolutely no facts, just once again more accusations, which isn't tolerated here and violations of the rules.

Because of that I won't be responding to you anymore.

[MightyGiants]

@MrGap92 and @sxdxca38

What are you two really arguing about?  I went back to the start of this thread.

Ignoring the title of the thread:

Both of you agree on the need for a franchise QB to be a consistent winner.

Both of you agree a franchise QB alone isn't the answer (although I think every Giants fan already knew that in light of the lost Eli Manning years after the 2011 miracle Super Bowl season)

So I am at a loss as to the animosity between you two as there is nothing to argue about.

[uconnjack8]

Unrelated, but imagine a game between the 85 Bears and the 2000 Ravens. I have to go with the 85 Bears.

Could finish 5-4

[kartanoman]

I watched that Bengals/Ravens game last night and saw two absolutely elite QB going head to head.  It took Lamar a little longer to get in a groove but that 4th quarter...my goodness.  Both of those guys are at the very top of the list of QBs in the league.  And one of them was going to lose.  That's the nature of the game.  Somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. 

You put either one of those QBs on this Giants roster and they are leading this division.  There's not a doubt in my mind. Not because I don't think the rest of the roster doesn't matter, but because I think the rest of this roster IS pretty good (with a few more holes to fill admittedly). But the QB is so bad he's dragging everyone down with him. 

Without your starting left tackle AND Daboll's offensive game plan?

Hmm.

With all due respect, get the other used car salesman on the lot to sell me that one, please.

Not with this team, I'm afraid.

Peace!

[Painter]

Any excuse to meander off topic in pursuit of our grievances and personal conceits is quite literally business as usual for some and too often for too many. 

Cheers?