Conflicting Narratives

[MightyGiants]

I'd buy that more if he had just said "i hate the pick" rather than getting into the exact specific reasons which have played out over the course of Jones career.  That's entirely too specific for me to think it was just lucky.  He must have seen something that Gettleman didn't.  Especially when you factor in the dozens of others who shared that opinion. 

I have to correct a misconception I see frequently stated here. Years ago, I read a reliable source (I know, forget where) that Pat Shurmur was really high on Daniel Jones. As we know, Shurmur isn't HC material, but he is one of the QB gurus in the league. On top of that, OC Mike Shula (another coach who was pretty good at developing QB talent) was no doubt involved.

There is a lot of animosity directed at Gettleman (I am not going to deny that he earned much of it), and it's hard not to feel that DJ received collateral animosity since the day he was drafted by virtue of being drafted by Gettleman.

As to your other point, considering we have seen very different versions of DJ both in style and production over his 6 seasons, I am not sure how any description could be "spot on".  It's simply not possible.

[MightyGiants]

That's not what you're doing on this site. You previously talked about Jones as a top-10 caliber QB. Now you're blaming the organization instead of accepting any responsibility for your posts over the years.

It's amazing how animosity will cloud perception.   I previously talked about the potential, and at the end of 2022, he appeared on track to achieving said potential.  Then, 2023 and GM/coaching malpractice with the Giants O-line (and leaving DJ in all Dallas games to absorb a horrific beating.

Speaking of responsibility, I think people should take responsibility for their obsession of being able to beat their chest and declare how right they were and mocking people they believe are wrong.  If people focused more on getting it right instead of being right, there wouldn't be any need for moderators.

Plus, the whole obsession with being right leads to serious closed-mindedness.  You are not even willing to entertain the notion that the Giants broke DJ despite overwhelming evidence because you couldn't play the nah nah I was right game.

[Doc16LT56]

No animosity here. Only fascination. You would add to your credibility if you admit to your evaluation mistakes on Jones. It's obvious to so many of us that Daniel Jones is the exact QB McShay warned us he was.

I have no interest in claiming I was right. I used to be a bigger cheerleader than you. I had to accept when they drafted Flowers and Apple in consecutive years that this organization is fundamentally rotten. Every year I hope they will prove me wrong and every year they just lower their standards and expectations. They've become a losing organization that makes excuses and they've been this way for over a decade now. Daniel Jones is not the problem. Daniel Jones is the most obvious symptom of the problem.

[MightyGiants]

No animosity here. Only fascination. You would add to your credibility if you admit to your evaluation mistakes on Jones. It's obvious to so many of us that Daniel Jones is the exact QB McShay warned us he was.

I have no interest in claiming I was right. I used to be a bigger cheerleader than you. I had to accept when they drafted Flowers and Apple in consecutive years that this organization is fundamentally rotten. Every year I hope they will prove me wrong and every year they just lower their standards and expectations. They've become a losing organization that makes excuses and they've been this way for over a decade now. Daniel Jones is not the problem. Daniel Jones is the most obvious symptom of the problem.

To the point in bold, no doubt about it, it would bring to those who heavily criticized Jones over the years great joy if I groveled and said how wrong I was to consider that Jones had potential.   

Beyond that, acknowledging an opposing viewpoint is a bedrock of intellectual honesty.

So frankly, I wish I could post a thread declaring myself the world's biggest fool ever to believe Daniel Jones could throw an NFL football and beg for forgiveness and mercy from Jones's long-time critics.  Doing so would benefit me personally.

The problem is it would go against my instinct for honesty and frankness because I see and acknowledge the overwhelming evidence that the Giants broke the QB they drafted.

On a side note, I can't help but notice you said

It's obvious to so many of us

The idea that you must be right because many people agree with you is an example of the ad populum fallacy, also known as the bandwagon fallacy. This fallacy occurs when someone argues that a belief or action is correct because the majority of people support it.

On the plus side, I am in complete agreement (not with your suggestion that I am some "cheerleader") but rather you claims that this organization is broken and has been for a long time.   That also begs the question of why a broken organization couldn't break a QB they drafted?

[StompYouOT]

No dissonance from me - I want no part of a QB drafted early if it means Jones all over.  What would be the point? I wanted Mayfield in 2023 and things would be a bit better now.  As of now, there's no quick fix.  If they think a franchise guy is available then do it, but more likely they will talk themselves into it because they are desperate and impatient.  Then some rookie will be like EJ Manuel, Blaine Gabbert, DJ etc. everyone gets fired and we go nowhere.

Don't take a QB if he isn't worth it.  Wait.  Find a Vet, hell do tryouts to the public, but not a top pick.

[Doc16LT56]

You may be overestimating how much people on this site are interested in your posts... whether groveling, boasting, or portraying pseudo-intellectual nonconformist.

Meanwhile...

The idea that you must be right because many people agree with you is an example of the ad populum fallacy, also known as the bandwagon fallacy. This fallacy occurs when someone argues that a belief or action is correct because the majority of people support it.

I don't think his assessment fit DJ to a tee, especially through the lens of DJ's rookie and year 4 perfance.  Why did DJ play much worse in years 5 and 6?  Why was QB guru Pat Shurmur so high on DJ?  Why did Greg Cosell study DJ's NFL film and declare he had franchise QB talent?  Why did Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah say DJ has franchise QB potential just last week?  Why did the Broncos and Washington want to draft DJ in round one?  Why did Mike Lombardi say the NFL was high on DJ and he would be a surprise first round QB?

[AZGiantFan]

Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
2 conflicting #Giants narratives I keep seeing/hearing

"Daniel Jones never should've been the No. 6 pick. That was a big mistake."

But then ...

"Giants have to draft their next QB this year. Take a shot even if it's supposed to be a weak class."

Um ... if that's the case, what do you think you might be saying in 2027-28?

I don't see how they are competing.  They could both be accurate, but I would disagree with point 2, if we're talking about the top pick.  You don't look for your guy in the 2nd or third round, but sometimes you find him there, so I wouldn't be averse to taking a shot at a second or third rounder, especially if we trade our #1 and have a surplus of picks.

[MightyGiants]

In the video of Chris Canty I posted, he raises a point that blows the whole "Daniel Jones hasn't changed he is the same badly flawed QB the Giants drafted in 2019" out of the water.


Simply put, he doesn't want to hear your claims that the Giants can't win with Daniel Jones.   He points out that not only did the team win with Daniel Jones, they won a playoff game with Daniel Jones.  So he wants to know why, in 2022, they could win a playoff game with Daniel Jones, and now they can't even beat the worst team in the league.

The simple and obvious answer is the Giants broke Daniel Jones, but since 6 or so guys all said that can't possibly be true, I guess we need to figure out some other explanation.   

[T200]

In the video of Chris Canty I posted, he raises a point that blows the whole "Daniel Jones hasn't changed he is the same badly flawed QB the Giants drafted in 2019" out of the water.


Simply put, he doesn't want to hear your claims that the Giants can't win with Daniel Jones.   He points out that not only did the team win with Daniel Jones, they won a playoff game with Daniel Jones.  So he wants to know why, in 2022, they could win a playoff game with Daniel Jones, and now they can't even beat the worst team in the league.

The simple and obvious answer is the Giants broke Daniel Jones, but since 6 or so guys all said that can't possibly be true, I guess we need to figure out some other explanation.   

If he wants to know, tell him to sign up for an account and join the BBH. It's already been discussed here.

You've said many times here that you are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.

To claim there is only one "simple and obvious answer" is an insult to everyone else who sees it differently. It's intellectually dishonest and hypocritical of you to tell us we aren't entitled to our own facts and then you engage in the same behavior you chastise others about.

For the record, the above isn't an attack. It's a simple and obvious observation.

[MightyGiants]

If he wants to know, tell him to sign up for an account and join the BBH. It's already been discussed here.

You've said many times here that you are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.

To claim there is only one "simple and obvious answer" is an insult to everyone else who sees it differently. It's intellectually dishonest and hypocritical of you to tell us we aren't entitled to our own facts and then you engage in the same behavior you chastise others about.

For the record, the above isn't an attack. It's a simple and obvious observation.

Terms like "simple" and "obvious" are not facts.  They are my opinions, ones you and other seem to feel I am not entitled to.  Worse you make it clear holding such opinions is highly offensive to you guys and shows I am a bad person.

Can we get back to talking football and not how you thing I am just the worst person on the planet?

[MrGap92]

I think it  is a little odd that because "6 people say it" it is a fact or as least insinuated or presented as such, yet there is a thread calling 13,000 people voting in a poll wrong.

[kingm56]

2022: "I am officially off the fence with Daniel Jones.  Much like I saw with Phil Simms (I think it started with Simms in the 49ers comeback) in the Giants' first Super Bowl year, I have seen Daniel Jones take that next step over the past month and become a franchise QB."

2023: "Im so happy the Giants signed their Franchise QB to a long term deal."

2024 "he simple and obvious answer is the Giants broke Daniel Jones"

Apparently, he was 'broken' in the 2023 offseason because he was terrible in the six games he played in 2023. The confirmation bias at play here is evident, and it's quite amusing to see Rich accuse others of the very bias he so plainly exhibits.  I appreciate his posts for the entertainment value.

[T200]

Terms like "simple" and "obvious" are not facts.  They are my opinions, ones you and other seem to feel I am not entitled to.  Worse you make it clear holding such opinions is highly offensive to you guys and shows I am a bad person.

Can we get back to talking football and not how you thing I am just the worst person on the planet?

If that is your opinion, it certainly didn't read that way. And since you say it is your opinion, then I stand corrected.

For clarity's sake, the three statements I bolded are your opinion also or facts?

[MightyGiants]

I think it  is a little odd that because "6 people say it" it is a fact or as least insinuated or presented as such, yet there is a thread calling 13,000 people voting in a poll wrong.

I am not following.  Here we are talking about how I hold the opinion that the Giants broke Daniel Jones and provided lots of supporting evidence for why I hold that opinion and we have six or so people telling me how wrong I am (while throwing in snarky remarks and barbs).

The poll you are referring to asks if Schoen and Daboll should keep their jobs.

In the end, what we have witnessed repeated is this:

An ad populum fallacy occurs when we use an "argumentum ad populum" (Latin for "argument to the people"), meaning that we make an appeal to what most people think, like, or believe, instead of justifying our position with evidence.

We have heard repeated references to being right because others on the forum agree with them.  The reality is popular doesn't mean correct, it simply means popular

[MrGap92]

If the poll was the opposite result that thread would have been presented vastly different, but that is neither here nor there.

With that said, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong, I read the previous post, as there were 6 (or 5) people who agreed with Canty's sentiments, so that is on me, fair enough, a simple misread. I thought it was a reference to other articles in the many topics that support DJ. I did not realize that other users here were the ones being targeted with that remark.