Conflicting Narratives

[MightyGiants]

If the poll was the opposite result that thread would have been presented vastly different, but that is neither here nor there.

With that said, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong, I read the previous post, as there were 6 (or 5) people who agreed with Canty's sentiments, so that is on me, fair enough, a simple misread. I thought it was a reference to other articles in the many topics that support DJ. I did not realize that other users here were the ones being targeted with that remark.

Gap,

I don't believe people agreeing or disagreeing with me changes the reality of whether I am right or wrong.  So you won't hear me say it.  My point is that Canty made an excellent point.  How does a team make the playoffs and even have an away playoff win because of Daniel Jones, and suddenly they can't beat the worst team in the league with the same QB (unless the QB isn't the same)

[kingm56]

Gap,

I don't believe people agreeing or disagreeing with me changes the reality of whether I am right or wrong.  So you won't hear me say it.  My point is that Canty made an excellent point.  How does a team make the playoffs and even have an away playoff win because of Daniel Jones, and suddenly they can't beat the worst team in the league with the same QB (unless the QB isn't the same)

It's only a good point when viewed in a vacuum and/or with a bias perspective. Off the top of my head, here are other QBs with playoff wins:

Tim Tebow
Mark Sanchez
T.J. Yates
Brock Osweiler
Rex Grossman
Blake Bortles


Did these franchise break these QBs too, or were they overvalued?

[MrGap92]

Gap,

I don't believe people agreeing or disagreeing with me changes the reality of whether I am right or wrong.  So you won't hear me say it.  My point is that Canty made an excellent point.  How does a team make the playoffs and even have an away playoff win because of Daniel Jones, and suddenly they can't beat the worst team in the league with the same QB (unless the QB isn't the same)

Plenty of reasons

While Carolina is a weak opponent that they should have beaten on paper, 2024 overall is a much tougher schedule

Not one, but two brand new coordinators, 3 if you count Daboll calling plays

Injuries to two top 5 draft selections in Andrew Thomas and Thibs. Both absences have been strongly felt in both protection and run defense, along with some pass rush.

Losing our #1 wide receiver to a concussion for multiple weeks.

Teams have plenty of tape on what Daboll used to mask DJ in 2022 and are now forcing him to beat them.

What Warner showed plenty of on Sunday, many here have been pointing out all season. Jones is not getting the ball to his open receivers, many plays, chunk yardage, first downs, and some explosive plays are all being left on the table by him.

Jones has also thrown more INTs this year already at 7, than he did in all of 2022.

The list goes on, at the end of the day, Daboll found something that worked with Jones in 2022, sadly, that something is not and was not sustainable, as that style of play is not very effective overall and was merely a product of a vastly overrated and fluky season where they won a playoff game against a very bad defense. They didn't beat many good teams that season. Though, to credit you and Canty, this Carolina team obviously is much worse on both sides of the ball. I agree they should have won, but at the same time, realistically, it is better for them to lose that game.

Teams are planning against that dink and dunk offense, not allowing it to happen. It does not work in a way that is sustainable. Throwing 15TDs is also not a sustainable recipe for success, though let's be real, will he even hit that this year?

They are forcing him to beat them, and he is unable to answer the call. We also do not have Barkley to lean on, though Tracy is doing his best to fill the void, Tracy has 3 100yd games to Saquons 4 in all of 2022. Not saying he is on the same level, but he is doing an excellent job and for the cap hit difference, was also the right call.

I don't view Jones as broken, I just think he is being exposed for what he has always been. If you disagree, no argument here, you are entitled to your opinions. I have never said you weren't

It just seems clear to me, in my opinion that the smoke and mirrors have simply faded, and despite the best support he has ever had, he is back to making the same mistakes he always made, when he is tasked with trying to actually play the QB position without the smoke and mirrors disguising his inability.

[MightyGiants]

It's only a good point when viewed in a vacuum and/or with a bias perspective. Off the top of my head, here are other QBs with playoff wins:

Tim Tebow
Mark Sanchez
T.J. Yates
Brock Osweiler
Rex Grossman
Blake Bortles


Did these franchise break these QBs too, or were they overvalued?

How many on that list were blamed for having a team so bad that they lost to the worst team in the league?

You are conflating a QBs who might be good enough to get their teams to the playoff time to time, with how DJ is being described which is this terrible QB holding back the entire franchise and causing them to be the worst team in the league.

In the end, we are left with two options-  One Schoen and Daboll, despite having the most information about DJ are totally incapable of evaluating QBs and gave a bad QB $40 million a year, or they are at least not totally incompetent and gave a franchise potential QB $40 million a year and broke him.

Of the two possibilities, the latter seems far more probable and fits all the available evidence.

[MightyGiants]

Teams have plenty of tape on what Daboll used to mask DJ in 2022 and are now forcing him to beat them.

I have heard this claim more than once.  However, if this is true, it means that Schoen and Daboll (who have more information about DJ than anyone on the planet) literally signed a very limited QB to a multi-year $40 million dollar deal.

Why on earth would you then want those two to tap and develop our next QB?

[MrGap92]

I have heard this claim more than once.  However, if this is true, it means that Schoen and Daboll (who have more information about DJ than anyone on the planet) literally signed a very limited QB to a multi-year $40 million dollar deal.

Why on earth would you then want those two to tap and develop our next QB?

I tend to look at it from a different lens, I instead would ask, if these guys were able to squeeze a playoff win out of Daniel Jones, why on earth would we not want to see what they can do with a QB with actual talent?



Secondly, I also believe it to be unfair to judge that contract as harshly considering:

There was a built in out, that will soon be exercised.

They were selecting 25th, and were not in a great position to draft anyone

There, at the time, were no clear and obvious substantial upgrades in FA


This is coupled, with the opinion, that after a successful first season with Daboll, it would only seem reasonable that if Jones was actually good, and it wasn't a fluke, that he would be expected to be able to take the next step in his development and handle more than 4 yard passes while continuing to elevate his level of play. He didn't, and he wasn't, and the contract shows they were prepared for one of two situations. 1) He continued to grow, develop, and get better and they get a bargain or 2) Their concerns he wouldn't would come to reality and they have an escape built in just in case. To me, that actually seems very smart. It didn't work out, but the expectation he would continue to get better after 2022 is not unreasonable by any stretch, to say they signed a limited QB to $40M  is a bit extreme to me, all things considered. The hope was that he would have continued his ascent, sadly, he peaked in 2022.

They even incentivized his contract to allow him to make even more money if he played at a higher level, he has not even come close to those incentives. Not that he needed any to begin with, he is clearly of high character and a hard, tough worker. He is giving it all he has, it just isn't enough. 

[MightyGiants]

I tend to look at it from a different lens, I instead would ask, if these guys were able to squeeze a playoff win out of Daniel Jones, why on earth would we not want to see what they can do with a QB with actual talent?
 

Because 2 seasons later they couldn't beat a bad Panthers team (who was missing players due to injuries, just like the Giants) with the same Daniel Jones, they won a playoff game with (not just with, but because of)

[T200]

Gap,

I don't believe people agreeing or disagreeing with me changes the reality of whether I am right or wrong.  So you won't hear me say it.  My point is that Canty made an excellent point.  How does a team make the playoffs and even have an away playoff win because of Daniel Jones, and suddenly they can't beat the worst team in the league with the same QB (unless the QB isn't the same)

Can you explain the vast difference in performance from the playoff win on the road in Minny to the complete dismantling in Philly the following week?

Maybe Chris or Jordan or Justin can explain it if you can't. Curious to know your thoughts.

[MrGap92]

Because 2 seasons later they couldn't beat a bad Panthers team (who was missing players due to injuries, just like the Giants) with the same Daniel Jones, they won a playoff game with (not just with, but because of)

Any given sunday

If any team was guaranteed a win over all bad teams they play, said team would be doing well for themselves. All bad teams win games still, we have had what, 2 or 3, maybe 4 winless teams in history? I think it is unfair to look at the single game in a vacuum

The Ravens lost to a bad Browns team a few weeks ago, a team our Giants beat, with the same Lamar that has seen them contend with and make the playoffs with often. Why is that? Are The HC and GM to blame for paying Lamar what they did if they can't beat the Browns? Is Lamar broken from that?

I ask that facetiously, not meant with any malice. I just believe isolating a single game does not tell the full story, far from it. Which is where all my other points above come into play some.

[MightyGiants]

Any given sunday

If any team was guaranteed a win over all bad teams they play, said team would be doing well for themselves. All bad teams win games still, we have had what, 2 or 3, maybe 4 winless teams in history? I think it is unfair to look at the single game in a vacuum

The Ravens lost to a bad Browns team a few weeks ago, a team our Giants beat, with the same Lamar that has seen them contend with and make the playoffs with often. Why is that? Are The HC and GM to blame for paying Lamar what they did if they can't beat the Browns? Is Lamar broken from that?

I ask that facetiously, not meant with any malice. I just believe isolating a single game does not tell the full story, far from it. Which is where all my other points above come into play some.

I am not sure in the middle of a 2-8 season your comments about isolating a single game is valid

[kingm56]

Any given sunday

If any team was guaranteed a win over all bad teams they play, said team would be doing well for themselves. All bad teams win games still, we have had what, 2 or 3, maybe 4 winless teams in history? I think it is unfair to look at the single game in a vacuum

The Ravens lost to a bad Browns team a few weeks ago, a team our Giants beat, with the same Lamar that has seen them contend with and make the playoffs with often. Why is that? Are The HC and GM to blame for paying Lamar what they did if they can't beat the Browns? Is Lamar broken from that?

I ask that facetiously, not meant with any malice. I just believe isolating a single game does not tell the full story, far from it. Which is where all my other points above come into play some.

Evaluating a single game or season in isolation is the genesis of the misguided projections regarding Daniel Jones.

[Gmo11]

I have heard this claim more than once.  However, if this is true, it means that Schoen and Daboll (who have more information about DJ than anyone on the planet) literally signed a very limited QB to a multi-year $40 million dollar deal.

Why on earth would you then want those two to tap and develop our next QB?

Isn't is possible Mara who we already know loves Jones and Barkley specifically could not be convinced it was in the best interest of his team to let Jones walk for nothing and also trade Barkley for the best offer they could get?  We already know Daboll/Schoen wanted Jones gone because they didn't pick up his 5th year.  Even if they weren't positive and just wanted a year to see what happens they would have picked up that year.  They were very sure Jones wasn't their guy when they got here.

And then yes, 2022 screwed up everything because they won significantly more games than they should have.  Daboll of course gets no credit for this by the way.  Only blame when they stink.  But the Vikings had the 31st or 32nd ranked pass defense that season.  They too won a ton of 1 score games they had no business winning because of how bad that defense was.  It was quite literally the only team in the playoffs the Giants would have stood a chance at beating. 

At that point though how do you convince your owner, who is more fan than executive, that this team isn't actually very good, those wins were a mirage, and we need to move on from at the very least Jones and possibly Barkley too.  Seems like a tough sell.  I can only imagine the amount of people on this very site losing their minds if they had blown up a playoff team.

[T200]

Isn't is possible Mara who we already know loves Jones and Barkley specifically could not be convinced it was in the best interest of his team to let Jones walk for nothing and also trade Barkley for the best offer they could get?  We already know Daboll/Schoen wanted Jones gone because they didn't pick up his 5th year.  Even if they weren't positive and just wanted a year to see what happens they would have picked up that year.  They were very sure Jones wasn't their guy when they got here.

And then yes, 2022 screwed up everything because they won significantly more games than they should have.  Daboll of course gets no credit for this by the way.  Only blame when they stink.  But the Vikings had the 31st or 32nd ranked pass defense that season. They too won a ton of 1 score games they had no business winning because of how bad that defense was.  It was quite literally the only team in the playoffs the Giants would have stood a chance at beating. 

At that point though how do you convince your owner, who is more fan than executive, that this team isn't actually very good, those wins were a mirage, and we need to move on from at the very least Jones and possibly Barkley too.  Seems like a tough sell.  I can only imagine the amount of people on this very site losing their minds if they had blown up a playoff team.

The playoff season and road playoff win are often cited in support of Jones. During that season, Jones passed for over 300 yards in a game three times: Minnesota twice and Detroit once. Minnesota's pass defense was ranked 31. Detroit's? 32.

Yes, Jones played well that season and capitalized on a weak pass defense in getting his first playoff win.

Know what I haven't seen? Reasons why Jones bombed (15/27, 135 yards, 1 INT) the following week against the #2 ranked defense. Nevermind... it's all clear now. 

[MightyGiants]

Isn't is possible Mara who we already know loves Jones and Barkley specifically could not be convinced it was in the best interest of his team to let Jones walk for nothing and also trade Barkley for the best offer they could get?  We already know Daboll/Schoen wanted Jones gone because they didn't pick up his 5th year.  Even if they weren't positive and just wanted a year to see what happens they would have picked up that year.  They were very sure Jones wasn't their guy when they got here.

And then yes, 2022 screwed up everything because they won significantly more games than they should have.  Daboll of course gets no credit for this by the way.  Only blame when they stink.  But the Vikings had the 31st or 32nd ranked pass defense that season.  They too won a ton of 1 score games they had no business winning because of how bad that defense was.  It was quite literally the only team in the playoffs the Giants would have stood a chance at beating. 

At that point though how do you convince your owner, who is more fan than executive, that this team isn't actually very good, those wins were a mirage, and we need to move on from at the very least Jones and possibly Barkley too.  Seems like a tough sell.  I can only imagine the amount of people on this very site losing their minds if they had blown up a playoff team.

1)  We have never heard Mara express "love" for Daniel Jones.  He has been supportive of his starting QB (as you would expect from an owner) but beyond admitting the obvious that they did everything to screw him up, I don't recall especially strong statements from Mara about Jones that I feel like I know Mara loves Jones.


2)  Hard Knocks did provide evidence of Mara's "love" of Barkley, but it also showed despite Mara's misgivings (and his Nephew's), they allowed Barkley to leave for nothing

3) In year one, Mara allowed Schoen not to exercise DJ's fifth-year option, which, if Mara loves Jones and is pulling the strings, you would have expected the opposite to happen.

4) Daboll got coach of the year and universal love from the fans in 2022, I can't think of way he could have possibly had more credit for the success in 2022.

5) Daboll had a full year coaching Daniel Jones, and by the end of the season, his knowledge of DJ's abilities and liabilities should have been infinitely better than our own (due to the expertise and data available to him).  If DJ is as you described him, it was coaching and GMHC malpractice not to strongly (to the point you got your way) push to move on from Daniel Jones.  I mean, the arguments they would have given the owner have been proposed here:  "Look, Mr. Mara, we had to run all sorts of schemes because Daniel Jones is so limited, and by the end of the season, the league was catching on, and I don't have a counter.  2022 was his peak (because our schemes have been exposed), and it's only down here from here.  Signing him to a veteran deal will only serve to throw away over $80 million of your hard-earned dollars and will lead to more really bad seasons."  I can't imagine Mara opposing a different direction after that pitch.

[MightyGiants]

The playoff season and road playoff win are often cited in support of Jones. During that season, Jones passed for over 300 yards in a game three times: Minnesota twice and Detroit once. Minnesota's pass defense was ranked 31. Detroit's? 32.

Yes, Jones played well that season and capitalized on a weak pass defense in getting his first playoff win.

Know what I haven't seen? Reasons why Jones bombed (15/27, 135 yards, 1 INT) the following week against the #2 ranked defense. Nevermind... it's all clear now. 

The entire defense and offense bombed against the NFC champion Eagles.   Was it realistic to expect Jones to rise well above the equally bad performances of his teammates?